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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
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PencilsInSpace · 06/04/2018 20:24

RedToothBrush - So Gender effectively replaces Sex in law ... It is one of the key concerns of women. I am yet to see much from Labour or LDs to reassure me on that. In fact everything to the contrary.

Yes, this is why the AWS thing has gathered so much attention even from women who are not in the Labour party. Section 104 of the EA says you can't have a shortlist solely for people with one protected characteristic except for sex. TW with a GRC are legally the same sex as women. Self-ID'd TW are not.

If Labour get away with allowing self-ID'd TW on AWS it sets a precedent for every other mention of 'sex' in the EA to be interpreted as 'gender'.

AWS are not a fringe issue.

thebewilderness · 06/04/2018 20:28

I don't think transactivists are classed as 'far right' are they
There are authoritarians on both the left and the right who enjoy debating with one another how best to position the boot on women's neck.
Women are not a team in their game. We are the ball.

merrymouse · 06/04/2018 20:32

I’m still not sure who would be on an AWS - do they exclude trans men?

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 06/04/2018 20:34

The absolute intention of the changes to the GRA are to replace the word sex with gender.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 20:37

Women are not a team in their game. We are the ball.

This. Also "right wing men believe women should be private property while left wing men believe we should be public property.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 06/04/2018 20:37

This is the stats of how many organisations have been Stonewalled on this issue:

www.stonewall.org.uk/workplace-equality-index

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 06/04/2018 20:38

They are Trumpian in their intention to build a wall of stone around this.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 20:40

I’m still not sure who would be on an AWS - do they exclude trans men

Yes. TRAs don't care as they have their manly privilege to help them.

Datun · 06/04/2018 20:47

I’m still not sure who would be on an AWS - do they exclude trans men

Yes

Absolute madness. Women who are, arguably, most influenced by patriarchy, and are forced to be gender nonconforming as a result, are excluded.

crispbuttyfan · 06/04/2018 20:58

No trans men want to be on aws because they are men.
And when a trans woman goes on an AWS she doesnt necessarily take the place of a woman, it will be whittled down to 6/7/8 probably depending on other factors. And each shortlist will be a open to a democratic vote, so if the trans women wins she has won on merit and gained the vote, if not then it'll go to a cis woman.

PencilsInSpace · 06/04/2018 21:03

I’m still not sure who would be on an AWS - do they exclude trans men

According to the law, anyone with a birth certificate that says 'female' - so women, TIFs with no GRC, TW with a GRC.

According to Labour, anyone who identifies as a woman - so any TW, a few women and some very dodgy opportunistic blokes.

Phelina · 06/04/2018 21:07

There is no such thing as 'cis' women. How patronising Hmm. We are women.

LangCleg · 06/04/2018 21:32

And when a trans woman goes on an AWS she doesnt necessarily take the place of a woman, it will be whittled down to 6/7/8 probably depending on other factors. And each shortlist will be a open to a democratic vote, so if the trans women wins she has won on merit and gained the vote, if not then it'll go to a cis woman.

There is no such thing as a cis woman. Please don't use offensive terms.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that only women and GRC-holding TIMs can be on AWS. The legislation is specific. And AWS are time-limited (I think to 2022?) because of this. The law recognises that they are discriminatory but made a time-limited exception due to the underrepresentation of women in political office. Women as a sex, not GNC males.

Datun · 06/04/2018 21:32

And each shortlist will be a open to a democratic vote, so if the trans women wins she has won on merit and gained the vote, if not then it'll go to a cis woman.

It doesn't work that way though. Democratic voting doesn't take into account that women are lesser than.

Hence all women shortlists.

It's really not complicated.

Pratchet · 06/04/2018 21:33

With Scotland, THANKYOU for the information Charley, I'm afraid I don't understand. Have these new definitions been enacted in Scotland?

Italiangreyhound · 06/04/2018 21:35

@DonkeySkin 'colleen's' sick story is quite the peak trans, isn't it. I read it a few years ago.

If laws around people 'transitioning' were to help people with gender dysphoria why do sports need to accommodate amateur or professional male athletes in female sports?

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 21:52

Do we have any numbers for how many people are self iding in other countries and what the figures were before self id was introduced?

crispbuttyfan · 06/04/2018 22:07

Around 250 have declared self-id in ireland since 2015.
However they didnt have any GRC system previously to compare.

But here is some info on other parts of the world.
edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/health/transgender-laws-around-the-world/index.html

Debbie6666 · 06/04/2018 22:34

@Pratchet

The met police talk about hate crimes and hate incidents, the latter not necessarily reaching the standard of a crime but recorded none the less for information. Its the same advice as on the citizens advice page i posted and the CPS.

www.met.police.uk/advice-and-information/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

Misgendering of itself is not a hate crime. Add hostility it may be a hate incident and if its severe enough for a crime to have been committed then its a hate crime.

So accidentally upsetting someone by misgendering them = not a hate crime. Misgendering someone while kicking the shit out of them = Hate crime. Unprovoked kicking the shit out of someone for no apparent reason except they are visibly trans, expect a hate crime elevation to your sentence even if you keep your mouth shut and never misgendered them.

Anyone on the fence about unpeaking I urge you to go look at the met police page, go look at the CAB page, the CPS page. Look around you at how religion and race hate crime is handled. We don't see huge numbers being prosecuted for un PC comments to those characteristics and they have greater protections than gender reassignment and disability. People don't get charged with hate crimes for homophobic comments unless they are committing crimes motivated by homophobic hate at the time. Trans hate crime is the same set of laws.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 22:54

Unprovoked kicking the shit out of someone for no apparent reason except they are visibly trans, expect a hate crime elevation to your sentence even if you keep your mouth shut and never misgendered them

Much as I don't advocate kicking the shit out of anyone, unlike your TRA buddies, how would they magically know it was on account of the person's transness if they didn't say that?

And again, the glaring omission is that misogyny isn't a hate crime or "hate incident". Which again suits your TRA chums very well indeed.

Italiangreyhound · 06/04/2018 23:12

@AnchorMum my heart goes out to you.

Have you searched for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria. There are places out there that are gender critical and I hope you find help. Flowers

@RedToothBrush "The whole thing has utterly destroyed mainly families. I do believe it is a cult"

Me too, except it is headless, bodyless ghost of a cult that self perpetuates.

Italiangreyhound · 06/04/2018 23:15

@Debbie6666

"But most certainly, a one off report of someone seeming out of place would not see you being charged with a hate crime."

I hope and believe you are right. I do not know if misgendenering is yet a crime in the UK. That is one of the many dangers of self id. I think it is a crime in USA. I believe it is definitely a crime in Canada. Canada is transgender central. And a Canadian Transsexual I know says it is very worrying.

This stuff feeds fears. Do you know how blasphemy laws appear to work in a far flung country? I won't name it. You can guess.

It appears people/a person accuse/s a person/people of blasphemy, there may or may not be evidence. But a momentum can build against that person or people.

Their lives may be in danger certainly they are going to find things tough.

'Gender' is a kind of religion, something with no evidence behind it but 'belief'. (I say this as a Christian.)

So if someone accuses you of misgendering, of 'hate speech', of transphobia, of being a terf etc. There .at or may not be evidence of things you said or not which actually simple assert that biology matters. That biology is not bigotry.

Your life may not be in danger like a person accused of blasphemy in a far flung country, but you Mau be under threat of abuse, your employer informed etc. This seems to be happening a lot in Canada a d USA. How long before this comes closer to home? That is the fear of hate speech. Of saying a man with a penis is not a woman. Do you see?

Italiangreyhound · 06/04/2018 23:42

But you could be interviewed by the police just for stating fact. I choose to acceit the wise some here nd their knowledge of laws over your optimism @Debbie6666 (and I am usually a very optimistic person).

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2018 00:09

In terms of hate crime where would I stand legally for being non contact with my family over all this trans stuff?

It got to the point where it was affecting my mental health and because I was sick of behaviour I would not have tolerated in other circumstances.

Would I be forced to suck it up? I honestly couldn't cope with it.

PencilsInSpace · 07/04/2018 00:12

Recent arguments have been

-It's a stat dec! It's at least as good as a grc. It's a criminal offence to lie on a stat dec so nobody would.

  • Aha! Everybody here pretends this is just about self-ID but there are some alt-right infiltrators posters here talking about things other than the gra. Don't Trust Them.
  • Nothing will change. All Your Space Are Belong To Us anyway.
  • The law is totally on the side of TRA / the law is completely neutral and wise in its nuanced balancing of competing needs and rights (delete as convenient)

There'll be another lot of BS arguments along in a week or two.