@crispybuttyfan
Your original claim: "It is in fact usually less than cis women."
Doesn't mention transwomen having the same testosterone levels as women. Doesn't mention any specific substance.
Therefore posting the first actual study researching the efficacy of testosterone treatment is entirely valid which shows the only transwomen where testosterone suppressant treatment worked only got within female range is valid. That you don't agree with the researchers (who are established medical professionals in the US with a large number of patients is presumably of no interest to you) is neither here nore there for the purpose of this argument. And I haven't cherry picked a study - it is literally the first longitudinal study looking at the efficacy of the treatment in the US. I am not aware of any other.
Here is a study that refutes your assertions overall [...}
Well, no, it doesn't. It's a literature review which looks at a total of eight studies in total, most of whom consist of qualitative interviews with a tiny sample size about transgender athletes personal experiences participating in sports. That such studies cannot refute claims made by researchers that males have an advantage over females even when they take testosterone suppressants is obvious, because these studies did not measure physiological paramaters of performance but simply asked their subjects questions.
Instead the one study even remotely looking at the physiology (Gooren and Bunck) actually support my point and I quote:
Differentiating not only between those taking cross-sex hormones and not taking cross-sex hormones, but also transgender female individuals taking testosterone blockers, may be necessary when discussing an athletic advantage.
The researchers from this study themselves acknowledge that merely suppressing testosterone is not enough. And that they could not show transwomen do not have an advantage over female competitors "owing to a large muscle mass 1-year post-cross-sex hormones".
The literature review concludes: In summary, there is limited research from which to draw any conclusion about whether transgender people have an athletic advantage in competitive sport or not. Their conclusion is that therefore transwomen should be allowed to compete.
But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Thanks though for posting yet another study for my collection that I can use to illustrate my points.
you are the one claiming there is no variety amongst these groups and it is all cut and dried, and fail to accept your claims such as reach are absolute in the way your portray them.
I claimed no such thing. I stated:
We are talking about averages and entire sex groups, not just particular individuals, precisely because the law change will affect entire sex groups, not just particular individuals.
There is neither denial of variety nor absolutes in there - I am talking of males as a sex group vs females as a sex group. And I even gave you specific examples of small men vs small women and large men vs large women. It's a nonsense of course to pick a particularly huge woman and pit her against a tiny dude and claim this invalidates the fact that men as a group are bigger and stronger than women.
clearly conflating males, with post hrt trans women
I am conflating nothing. Transwomen are male and therefore a subset of men.
But most importantly, as the study you linked me to makes clear, many transgender athletes, particularly the male-born have no interest in cross-sex hormones or even testosterone suppressants if they "wish to use their penis" as the authors put it. Clearly, non-op, non-med transwomen would not lose any advantage over women at all (atm this would exclude them from international sport of course, but possibly not from regional or national events depending on how they are regulated).