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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

397 replies

1955stephen · 03/04/2018 23:23

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 07/04/2018 19:30

And what vagina said

Which is a sentence i never thought i would think...let alone type

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 19:40

Trans women are not the people to fear when going to the loos. I can honestly assure you, that trans women are as frightened, if not more, of the man in the loos who attacks women.

When you use the word honestly all my senses come to alert. Most of what you have said has been disingenuous at best. I understand that you think women should be willing to be used as human shields for people who identify as transgender.
I quite simply disagree.

PencilsInSpace · 07/04/2018 20:52

Hi Stephen, welcome back.

I will do my very best to not just listen, but to hear what is being said.

Thank you.

So I am asking, if out of politeness that you refer to me (and my mates who let me write up their answers) as a trans man. It's only words , and it won't harm you, but to not do so might harm me

Politeness, the wish to be kind and the notion that 'it's only words' so it doesn't matter if we fudge them a bit is what's got us into this mess. Most of us have been kind and polite for decades, calling people women or men, he or she according to their wishes, because it didn't harm us.

The situation now has changed. The situation now is that women and children are being harmed, partly because of the wholesale redefinition of words and the emptying of meaning. I'd say this cultural change has been creeping up on us since the EA and has accelerated rapidly since the trans equality report.

You're a lawyer Stephen. You understand very well that words can have huge power to harm, forbid, compel or protect us. We're on a MN thread here, not writing legislation, but if the words in existing legislation (man, woman, male, female, sex, gender ...) now refer to something completely different in everyday use then that's a problem and it is harming us.

We no longer have a working definition of 'woman' (or man). We have circular slogans that make trans people feel empowered and accepted but they're no good for women trying to protect our rights.

Sex is a protected characteristic but increasingly it's being trumped by 'gender' which means all sorts of different things. If you can't see sex, you can't see sexism.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic but is being rapidly reframed as 'genital preferences' and as something to get over to be kind and polite.

The situation now is that we desperately need clarity of language, hence the use of terms like TIF or TIM.

Not all trans identifying females are trans men. Some are trans masculine, some are non-binary or genderqueer or a bajillionty other genders. All are female.

Not all trans identifying males are trans women. Some are trans feminine, some are non-binary or genderqueer or a bajillionty other genders. Some have a cross-dressing fetish. Some are misogynistic violent men who have found a new way to harm women. All are male.

I'll do my best to refer to you and your friends in the way you prefer for this thread but there will be times where greater clarity of language is needed.

PencilsInSpace · 07/04/2018 21:42

To be fair and honest to all, I will 'out' myself, I am Stephen Whittle

I know who you are. You set up Press for Change and were instrumental in the drafting of the GRA and the EA. So I know that you know that the GRA passed because everyone thought we were dealing with a tiny few people with gender dysphoria and people generally were prepared to put up with a bit of inconvenience in order to be kind, because these people were suffering.

How times change.

There's a tweet of yours posted upthread that says 'Pre-2005 ALL we could do was self-ID & no endless reporting of men being caught in 'the ladies'. In the 2yr pre-GRC ALL we do is self-id - Terf war is fabricated drama out of zilch.'

When was the last time you were in women's spaces, Stephen? What gives you the right to assert that our concerns are a 'fabricated drama out of zilch'?

Pre-2005 (and up until very recently) we had a kind of 'honour system' in women's spaces that worked very well. That is now breaking down because what was extended as a courtesy to a few trans women is now being demanded as a right by any man who says so. This harms women, children and transsexuals (i.e. the trans people the GRA was meant for in the first place).

We now have rapists in women's prisons. We now have girls changing for PE in staff toilets because they are otherwise expected to undress in front of male classmates. Please read this short thread by Deptford People's Project about the harm being caused to women in poverty by the transactivist agenda (there's a longer interview here if you have time).

We are dealing with a giant mess that you had a very big part in creating. Please now work with us to put this right.

Also, if we are being polite you will need to acknowledge that the term 'terf' is not only a slur but is hate speech which has been used to incite physical violence against women trying to protect our rights.

Pratchet · 07/04/2018 21:46

Hear hear Pencils 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 22:33

RE Guide trips and shagging, look, most people's mental image of a Girl Guide is of a child. If a person wants to post an anedcote related to guiding that's about sex it would behoove them to make it explicitly clear that they're not talking about children if that is in fact the case. Associating child centered organizations with sex just isn't a good idea, if your aim is to reach out to people to build trust so fruitful discussion can happen. Surely I'm not the only person here with some awareness of how PR works.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 07/04/2018 22:37

we had a kind of 'honour system' in women's spaces that worked very well. That is now breaking down because what was extended as a courtesy to a few trans women is now being demanded as a right by any man who says so

Pencils I've been struggling to articulate this. Thanks for putting it so clearly.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 07/04/2018 22:42

I just know that one concern thats been mentioned on these threads would be the potential for sex in an unsupervised overnight camp

Its not unsupervised in scouts but could be in guides both in the 10 to 14 age group

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 22:45

Today we are exactly where Feminists in 2005 said we were going if we wrote laws that recognized gender as a protected characteristic.
I do not say this as an I told you so, but rather to point out that those who advocated for codifying a delusional disorder into law as a protected characteristic knew and intended this result.

PencilsInSpace · 07/04/2018 22:46

Associating child centered organizations with sex just isn't a good idea, if your aim is to reach out to people to build trust so fruitful discussion can happen. Surely I'm not the only person here with some awareness of how PR works.

Yes. When people are expressing their alarm at the removal of basic safeguarding measures in an organisation like Girl Guides it's not at all appropriate to respond with a fondly remembered sex anecdote.

FloraFox · 07/04/2018 23:00

@1955stephen

You responded to concerns about underage sex which could lead to pregnancy at Guide camps with an anecdote about wishing you could have shagged in bed rather than on heather in a Guide camp. Are you so tone deaf you can’t see the issue with this that you are actually continuing to defend what you said?

While you are here, if you are asking women to use untruthful language to spare your feelings, can you commit to never using the word “cis” as many women here find it very offensive?

MeritBadge · 07/04/2018 23:03

I may have misunderstood, but I read Stephen's reply about the Guides as a misunderstanding on his part because his anecdote referenced a Scout and a Guide on a mixed camp, rather than there being a trans-identifying male child in a sleeping bag in the same tent as girls without supervision or consent or even knowledge on the part of the parents. (And that organisation previously - currently? - being a single sex safe space)

If this is the case, two very different things are being discussed with reference to this point, so it needs clarifying to ensure the question put to Stephen was understood and is what he answered.

PencilsInSpace · 07/04/2018 23:12

Here's the issue with GirlGuides Stephen.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 23:34

I can't fathom why anyone would think that was a good example of an anecdote to share on a site full of parents. Steven, what were you hoping the point we'd take away from that would be?

AnotherQuoll · 08/04/2018 04:17

I can't even understand why Stephen thought "Oh I'll just randomly reminisce with strangers about some sexual experience now". Righto then... Confused

thebewilderness · 08/04/2018 04:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 08/04/2018 05:09

Unsolicited penis updates! Women always love receiving those.

Pratchet · 08/04/2018 06:22

Re 'seems to be a guy thing', it's just that Stephen is trans. I'm not suggesting it's a trans thing either. Though I think a tin ear is a transactivist thing.

1955stephen · 08/04/2018 17:03

Clarification: THE GIRL GUIDES

When I said YES (I was asked to answer yes, or no)
I mean: absolutely it is in the right of the Girl Guides Association (GGA), and their individual leaders to choose to have a single sex (or mixed sex) residential or camping weekend,.

I do and will support the rights of the GGA to determine what that means in any set of circumstances, but
I would advise them that it should be done only in consultation with the parents of the girls attending an event, and the girls themselves. where they are capable of comment
(i.e. Brownies would probably be too young to make serious comment, but they may well have something to say which should be heard, and may be considered.)

It is up to the GGA, in discussion with
• regions, districts and troops, AND
• in consultation with parents,
• and girls in some circumstances,
to determine what single sex means, and if that definition might vary in different circumstances. And if they would prefer instead a mixed sex event.

Guiding is a voluntary world-wide Association. It has had to deal with many complex cultural questions in different countries and differing cultural groupings.
At times, of course, it had a mixed record on how it has managed those questions, but it is acknowledged that the safeguarding of the children is rightfully their paramount and primary concern.

As UK law is, in the context of discussing Girl Guide activities, Single – sex can be any one of three things (I explain what I mean when I am using single sex iin my next post). Single sex may include:

  1. all children categorised as girls on the original birth certificate, without any amendments, or
  2. children who are now categorised as girls on the birth certificate, including those where the birth certificate has been amended because of a 'mistake', or a 'change' (see the p.s below), or
  3. children (in the GG) who are 'girl identified'.

I don’t believe I have the right to determine what the answers are for the GGA, but my view is that the law does give the GGA those 3 possibilities.

With participation in decision making, and appropriate information (e.g. if a trans identified child is attending a troop, that should form part of the discussion, but other parents should not be given the identity of that child),
the parents of girl guides might then choose not to send a child to a (1) or a (2) or a (3) event, just as some parents might choose not to send a child to an event where children will take part in activities such as hill walking without adult supervision.

I would advise the Girl Guides (as I did in their consultation) that they have a responsibility to all girl guides, and in a plural society, this includes acknowledging that some parents might limit their child's participation in some aspects of Guiding, in some circumstances. for example: some parents might choose not to let their children participate in church parade.

When I was a guide, and then later as a Scout leader, the question of participation in activities without adult supervision was a big issue for both associations.
In the 1980s, it was particularly a matter for discussion, as falling numbers had meant both Associations giving a serious consideration as to taking on the ‘supervising organisation’ role for the Duke of Edinburgh’s award,. This would mean children/teenagers taking part in activities which were largely unsupervised such as hillwalking and camping, which are a key element of the award, unless the child has a disability.

Activities like Church Parade may not need to be substituted, but I along with others, argued, that activities such as hill walking and camping are so much part of the Guide experience, and so important for the development of independence for many girls, girls should not be incidentally excluded.
I argued that the Associations should offer an alternative of supervised hill walking and camping, which is indeed what the Associations did determine to do.

OP posts:
1955stephen · 08/04/2018 17:09

SEX

I am being asked a lot of questions on the forum, however I am wary of ‘preaching’. I will do my best over the next few weeks to answer as many as possible. But there is limited time in any day. Please bear with me.

I will tend to write complex and long answers, as these are the answers. I would not assume to insult your intelligence as to do less would be to do that.

However, there are those who are being abusive, please don’t. I don’t want to close down this opportunity to answer people’s questions.

However, in reality, I am probably not going to be persuaded to think much differently than I do. I laid out my position in my first post – gender isn’t real, except in the power it has when used to oppress others.

After over 25 years of research, I would probably need a ‘graphene’ moment, to have any major change of mind on that point. I explain my position on ‘sex’ below
_

'Sex' is a difficult word as so many people have pointed out.
Science and medicine appear to take two approaches to the definition of biological sex;

  1. there are those who advocate biological sex as being a consequence of multiple, complex, interactions within the foetal developmental process, which results in two sexes only, with many variations between the two, and the occasional outlier beyond the two.
Alternatively,
  1. there are those who advocate biological sex as being a consequence of multiple, complex, interactions within the foetal developmental process, and as such, whilst it provides 2 larger groups of bodies, it also suppliers multiple smaller groupings of bodies. That variety is considered normal within the sense of how nature works, in most multi-cellular animal forms.

UK law, on the other hand, only acknowledges 2 sexes, Male and Female.

However, the definition of male and female has for some time included reference to biology and to medical intervention. In the last 30 to 40 years, there have been added 3 other elements:
--- social-construction,
--- psychological presentation, and
--- medical evaluation..

At the moment, once A CHILD has had a LEGAL 'sex' of 'boy' or 'girl' attributed to them, it remains that way unless:

  1. with support from doctors, the parents of a child with a condition defined by medicine as intersex, apply to have the child's birth certificate and sex category amended. In this case the birth certificate will have a penned amendment in the margin.
  2. with support from doctors, the parents of a child can apply to have the child's birth certificate and sex category amended, because a mistake was made at the time of birth registration. In this case the birth certificate will have a penned amendment in the margin.

For 1000 years, Scientists, doctors and lawyers have addressed the question of what is the ‘sex’ of an intersex people. Its most recent manifestation has been in questions like
---- "should surgeons operate on intersex babies to normalise them".

When asked to address that question, my answer was: “No - not unless necessary to save the baby's life”.

That answer isn't based on any theological or socio-theoretical ideology. It’s basis is completely moral –

  1. the necessity of saving life, and
  2. Acknowledging that the necessity of saving life, might mean also doing things which are not exemplary under other circumstances.

But, the 'No' is because wherever possible, I think adults should not have the right to do anything to babies or children (unless critical and life-saving) which might harm the future possibility of that baby’s or child’s sexual pleasure.

As humans, consensual sexual pleasure is something that is a limited right. It is not absolute.
The limitations for example might include where a person obtains consent from another
-- inappropriately or
-- unlawfully, or
--- in a situation, where they are aware of a risk that the activity might harm another either physically, emotionally, psychologically or in any other way. at some future time.
An example of that might be: teacher / 16+ student consensual sexual relationship, which I believe is rightly limited by law.

My reading inclines me towards the view that Biological sex is made up of 2 larger groups of bodies, and multiple smaller groupings of bodies.
But I am not enough of a scientist to swear in court that I full understand the science behind that view, it is instead based on observation and limited empirical experience.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 08/04/2018 17:17

Stephen

Thank you for coming back. You have written a great many words and many of them are illuminating on your world view and various positions. However, you have failed to answer the central question about the Guides policy that has been put to you by many posters. To whit:

The current policy has no safeguarding procedures to prevent unplanned pregnancies in teens and tweens who take part in residential trips. Moreover, the current policy has an explicit instruction not to inform parents whether or not this unsafeguarded risk is present on particular trips.

I realise you want to give detailed, contextual responses to us, but this one really is simple. Do you, or do you not, think that a Guide policy that neither mitigates risk of unplanned pregnancy in tweens and teens nor informs parents of this risk is fit for purpose?

This is a yes or no question.

1955stephen · 08/04/2018 17:19

And apologies , I am appropriately told off.
I won't ever use the t**f. term again.

OP posts:
1955stephen · 08/04/2018 17:22

I have gone back, yesterday, and reread the entire GGA Safeguarding & Risk documents .

I cannot see where 'parent's must not be told' as was mentioned earlier, it may be in another document and I would like, if anyone can, ot be directed towards it.

OP posts:
ReluctantCamper · 08/04/2018 17:35

@agnesbadenpowell , can you help with Stephen's enquiry above?

PrivatePie · 08/04/2018 17:39

1955stephen

I have not RTT but saw your last comment and was interested to see the guidelines too. From Google I found best practice for GG UK, or did you want GGA specifically?

'It is not a requirement - or best practice - to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.'

Found here