Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

Transsexuals, lesbian and gay people, intersex people and women are all in the same boat here. We all have in common that our lived experience, signifiers and ability to claim membership of our respective groups have been colonised and appropriated by a specific group of people and a specific rhetoric.

No single appropriated group is having much success in rejecting transactivism in isolation because we are immediately shut down on the grounds that we are marginalising one of the other appropriated groups. We all need to do it en masse.

I have enjoyed hearing from Stephen and Jaycee. I must admit to skim reading Stephen's posts. He could have benefited from some editing.

But it's useful to know the history of the movement that's being appropriated now.

It's also a useful reminder to hear about the pain they suffered as children, both internally and inflicted externally from society. I know the whole 'I am soooo oppressed because I want to wear eyeshadow, men will kill me if I enter the gents' thing makes everyone's eyes roll so hard they nearly pass out. However there's truth there for people with actual gender dysphoria. In their case this certainly is not, cannot be just a lifestyle choice.

And while I will always fundamentally disagree with anyone who says they were born in the wrong body, or tailors their behaviour according to gender stereotypes (sproggets! ), that doesn't mean I don't want them to live, happy, safe and peaceful lives.

I'll even use preferred pronouns although it's a wrench, but I like to be polite. But when the cost to me is too great I'll stop. When respecting the choices of transsexuals means the rights of women are put on the line, that's when I start to act.

So think on Stephen.

I get you LangCleg (and I suspect you're a good deal smarter than me!).

So Stephen - over to you:

I tend to just skip the immensely long posts

Sure, my point was a more general one and related to Jaycee's remark that there's something of a transsexual fightback going on at the moment on twitter and elsewhere which I have also noticed.

Jayceedove has not derailed, but I do take your point. So let's get back on track because I want to ask some questions while Stephen is around please

@1955stephen can I ask what research is being done into gender dysphoria and what alternatives there are to transitioning, please?

Are you alarmed at the massive rise in trans boys?

Lastly, i noticed you said "My passions are my family, the rule of law, justice, peace, and the idea that all should have the opportunity for a fulfilled life."

How can the rule of law work if people can self id as the opposite sex? What if some women's fulfilment means being able to get away from males? Is it really harming boys, who say they are girls but no gender recognition certificates under 18, (is that right?) so still boys, to be told that Girl Guides is not eligible for them?

Thank you

@BarrackerBarmer your post starting "When a woman is a recovering anorexic or self harmer she will ..." Is excellent.

I have always wanted to support trans people but the blatant disregard for young trans-identifying children and teens, trans people calling Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria into question makes me think that actually the trans agenda is very damaging.

While I still want to retain respect for old school transsexuals I think their reinforcement of gender is harmful. If they have dysphoria Isn't it sex dysphoria?

I have always wanted to support trans people but the blatant disregard for young trans-identifying children and teens, trans people calling Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria into question makes me think that actually the trans agenda is very damaging

This is a really crucial point.

I know an ex ballet dancer. She had a successful, fulfilling career and has spent a lifetime loving ballet. It was a career she desperately wanted as a child. Now she's in her forties and has children of her own, she is actively pushing them away from ballet.

Ballet was largely a positive thing in her life but she recognises that aspects of it as a profession are gruellingly hard. She loves her children. She doesn't want them to experience the hard bits despite any good it brought her.

I'm mentioning it because it's a similar analogy to parents who have had eating disorders. There are so many things in life which people seek to protect their children from and ballet is much more innocuous than anorexia. The trans agenda seems opposite to that. We see adult trans people who on the one hand claim they have been suicidal over their feelings and on the other are seemingly pushing young people towards being trans. It is very revealing. It's not neutral or supportive. It's not compassionate.

I am posting this today and nothing else as I have an important family day.

Stephen has not been here for some time and others were posting general comments and I responded to a direct observation about the word transsexual being reclaimed.

That is not me 'derailing' the thread?

These threads vanish quickly if nobody posts for a while and Stephen said he would be gone for days. And the fightback by transsexuals coming onto your side of the argument in recent weeks is an important point because Stephen IS a transsexual man. So we need his thoughts on that matter if he comes back.

I have always tried to be respectful and patient over the past month despite a hostile undercurrent. But I think we are at an important crossroads and we both share real concerns over the impact of self ID and removal of gatekeeping. So I have persisted.

Stephen is uniquely well placed to comment about this. We need his thoughts.

I went to bed last night with no ill will. Yet this is seen as 'flouncing' off. Everything gets taken negatively.

If you do not have trust in someone largely agreeing with you then there is never going to be a reasonable accommodation with the many out there who are miles from my position, let alone your own.

As for it being sex dysphoria and not gender dysphoria as Italian pointed out. I commented on that in the only way I could, by describing how and why the term sex in transsexual was changed to gender by doctors and psychiatrists as they interacted with me.

It involved relating personal events which are taken as some proof of narcissism. But if I had answered generally, I would have been asked to say why I believed that. So I would have given the personal reasons from my experience - and back to the same place.

To answer questions on a subject that is outside most people's direct experience and hard to comprehend all we have is a personal take. Mine is no more valid than your own, but is a different perspective. Which is why I offer it.

If I was narcissistic then as a writer I could have published my life story and made money out of it. I was asked to do so over 30 years ago. I never have because it would have impacted my family and not been fair. I post here what I chose not to write then only because I hope it might give you some sense of what it was like. That's all.

You do not have to read.

If we listen to one another we build the bigger picture. If we only listen to ourselves we will believe what we will forever believe what we have always believed. We learn from interaction.

LangCleg - if you cannot see I am only speaking in 'good faith' there's not much I can do about that.

I am not sure agreement is possible given the diversity of views, and the big gap between most of us on here and the trans activists out there, but surely it is easier by not name calling or psychoanalysing every word one another says.

That happened within minutes when Stephen first posted on here. I am quite surprised he came back. Many would not put themselves up to have their lives dissected by strangers. After transition we just want quiet lives not to be in the spotlight.

I hope Stephen does return. He may well not agree with me about self ID. But we should respectfully let him explain why.

Mutual respect of opinions is how you search for a solution. Not by looking for hidden motives in one another that most of the time are not going to be there.

JC: we had a reasonable accommodation. It wasn't wrecked by women.

@jayceedove I hope Stephen returns soon too.

I see my explanation got deleted. I'll try again in a non-delete-y manner.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Flounce. Thread reorientated back to topic. Return. Many words about self with passive aggressive appeal to female socialisation thrown in for good measure. Thread now focused on self. Yet again. Rinse and repeat.

Transsexuals, lesbian and gay people, intersex people and women are all in the same boat here. We all have in common that our lived experience, signifiers and ability to claim membership of our respective groups have been colonised and appropriated by a specific group of people and a specific rhetoric.

No single appropriated group is having much success in rejecting transactivism in isolation because we are immediately shut down on the grounds that we are marginalising one of the other appropriated groups. We all need to do it en masse.

Indeed. I do think this can be stopped, I really do. I just worry that by the time the public is aware that transgender does not actually mean transsexual...it will be too late. And then all of the groups you mentioned are fucked over for a very long time as if self ID is actually passed, it will be very difficult to reverse.

Stephen, I would ask that you read the recent thread 'T' and to do so until the very end. It may seem to you initially that a well-intentioned trans woman (with whom you may agree on many points) has been unfairly treated but it warrants full and complete consideration.

@1955Stephen

Trans women are not the people to fear when going to the loos. I can honestly assure you, that trans women are as frightened, if not more, of the man in the loos who attacks women.

How can you give this assurance? Please show us the evidence that:

• TIMs are no danger to women in private spaces
• TIMs experience greater fear of men than women experience
• TIMs are at more risk of harm from men than women are.

I haven’t seen any evidence to support the above. There is however evidence that TIMs continue to have male pattern criminality following transition.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

we should respectfully let him explain why.

While expecting that Stephen is equally respectful in turn. I am all for dialogue and discussion of actual points. However I don't feel a duty, as a woman, to be the better person and nicely and attentively respect someone who is not returning the courtesy.

However, as a trans man, I am seriously trying to think how to engage commentators on the proposals for change. I would like to be able to explain:
-why many trans people have sought changes to the current legislation; and
-what the issues were that we thought long and hard about before making the request for those proposed legal changes, and
-why we think that the proposed fears being discussed must be heard, but
-why we believe the fears are almost certainly unwarranted.

Apologies for resurrecting this thread but I couldn't comment earlier. I just wanted to make my point that Stephen said right at the beginning the intention as to tell us we are all wrong.

We know you think we are wrong Stephen, that is why we are having a hard time being listened to by anyone, you and other trans activists are telling everyone one we are wrong before even listening. We really don't appreciate that attitude at all.

If Stephen wants a conversation then perhaps Stephen should approach this as a conversation rather than as a wonderful opportunity to educate us/preach to the heathens.

A bit more mutual discussion, a bit less Corporal Visit.

Stephen I am still interested to hear your views.

why we believe the fears are almost certainly unwarranted.

We have been told at various times and places over the 13 years of this discussion that a significant number of women and girls suffering assault at the hands of poseurs is a reasonable price to pay for the convenience of transgender identified males being able to Self ID.

To: Rufustherenegadereindeer1
In response to what I said:
But, you know, as a ranger guide I appreciated the gentleness of the the venture scout, who introduced me to the idea of pleasant sex. But I do wish we had had access a nice warm mattress, rather than a rather painful bed of heather.
You responded:
That's really inappropriate on here as people are worried about their young daughters in the guides...and i would have been very concerned about my young son in the same situation

Please read something on the history of Girl Guides, and make sure you are properly informed, before assuming I am some casual monster.
A very good account of an earlier version of the Guides is Janie Hamptons "How the Girl Guides won the war" which is at www.amazon.co.uk/How-Girl-Guides-Won-War/dp/0007356323?tag=mumsnetforum-21
One of my most favourite of books.

I said I was a RANGER guide and he was a VENTURE scout .
In 1974, one had to be at least 17 to join either. I was 19, and he was at least that.
Is my message still inappropriate?
And, seriously, if you were imagining this was two thirteen year old kids, why would you be more worries about the boy than the child who is (at that time) female?

@1955stephen as a trans nan I'd like to hear your thoughts on the very Hugh numbers of girls now identifying as boys, ehatvit means, how we as a society should handje this (as far as I know) unprecedented 'phenomenon'. Please.

man, and high...

As i have said in response to your pm

I know the age groups for guiding and the scouting movement

I know it was not two 13 year old children

And at no point did i say i was more worried about the boy in that situation

Please do not pm me again

Though i would also add at no point did i call you a monster

Obviously sex between two legal aged people is not monsterous

Regardless of age, you didn't consider an anecdote about shagging on a Guide camp inappropriate? Considering what mothers' concerns are around trans activism and Guiding?