Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

[rowdywoman1]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

He comes across as a bit of a knobber but kudos for attempting to propose a solution.

The TRAs are going to hate it though

By the abysmal standards of recent articles in the Guardian, then this is quite good, though by the standards of what would constitute a decent analysis of the issues, it doesn't come close.

The problem now is that most of us have come to the conclusion that this isn't about a conflict between women's rights and the rights of transgender people. If it was, there would be a way of discussing it and, hopefully, resolving it amicably. In reality a lot of us long ago came to the conclusion that current transactivism is an organised effort by sexual predators to invade women's spaces and gain access to potential victims. I think it's quite a steep hill to climb to persuade people like D'Ancona and even Hadley Freeman that that is the case.

Third spaces totally reasonable. Practicalities of hashing them out in various circumstances would prove difficult of course, but trying to work it out anyway is a lot better than deciding it’s all a bit confusing so let’s just abolish single-sex spaces altogether and call women bigots if we object.

Like ahem...

twitter.com/Giuliana_London/status/980625157092978689

Particulary loving this one

We have had Russian money given to us and a 'platform'

Excellent. I want some beluga caviar too

twitter.com/Raspberry_Saucy/status/980758687332683777

In reality a lot of us long ago came to the conclusion that current transactivism is an organised effort by sexual predators to invade women's spaces and gain access to potential victims. I think it's quite a steep hill to climb to persuade people like D'Ancona and even Hadley Freeman that that is the case.

Exactly. They still don't understand that it's not about transsexuals any more.

No feminist ever has objected to third spaces. All the solutions he offers here have been suggested and supported by feminists and point blank rejected by TRAs.

It's a good article but he is still stuck in the false TRA framing.

' In the best sense of the word, he is a liberal who, faced with an ethical conundrum, decided to err on the side of trust of his customers.'

Well no, Matthew. He's decided to trust his male customers and disbelieve the female ones. Think about it.

(I like what Ancona is trying to do with this article but he needs to do a lot more listening to women before he will really grasp this issue.)

Yeah we are all just rolling around in roubles.

At least The Guardian is finally making space for some articles that don't tread the usual lines.

hackmum
While I do think that some predators have jumped on the back of these issues I don't believe that seeing them as representing a whole group gets us anywhere. Where does that position leave all the teenage girls transitioning - the main group growing in numbers? Where does that leave all the transgender women who many of us have known for decades?

Positioning transgender people as predators is really unhelpful - just as it is positioning all scout masters, priests, swimming coaches as predators just because there have been a significant number of paedophiles who infiltrated those groups.

rowdywoman1 - of course I take your point. I don't for a moment think that all (or even most) transgender people are predators. As you say, there are plenty of transwomen who have been peacefully going about their business for decades without doing any harm to anyone.

I do think, however, that the current wave of transactivism is largely driven by people with an anti-woman agenda. In some cases, it's because they want access to women's and girls' spaces for sexual reasons, and in others, perhaps, it's just because they are men's rights activists who hate women.

There are also a lot of people who have been swept up in the transactivist cause who are neither predators nor woman-haters, but who are simply gullible idiots who imagine that the transactivist cause is a progressive one.

rowdy - I agree, but if you substitute sexual predator for either MRA or AGP, I think the point stands. The AGPs are in charge of the TRA movement now and they don't want to blend in quietly and peacefully. They want to barge in and be validated. Matthew's article is still framed that the argument is between feminists and transsexuals - and it really isn't. As he would know if he spent a bit of time on here and saw how transsexuals and feminists actually interact with one another - a few disagreements, yes, but often broad agreement and many paths for ways forward.

"Where does that leave all the transgender women who many of us have known for decades? "

It should make most sane people realize that "transgender women" aren't women and it's not women's responsible to budge up to accommodate them. Transgender people have demonstrated that they are effective campaigners with a lot of media attention. It's up to them to find a solution that doesn't impact women and girls.

As a man, I was not entitled to offer an opinion on the effect of new gender recognition rights upon cis women. I’ve thought long and hard about this and realised that, to use the technical term, it is bullshit. The notion that only those with “lived experience” of a specific phenomenon can write about it effectively abolishes journalism – which might be snappily defined as “finding out stuff you didn’t know about, and reporting it”.

This is disingenuous. Firstly, very little journalism these days is just reporting information. The majority of journalism is monitoring Twitter, copying and pasting and writing opinion pieces about it. And d'Ancona writes purely opinion pieces for the Guardian. If you find stuff out and express an opinion, particularly about other people's experiences of course you're going to attract opinion or criticism back, rightly or wrongly. It's notable that even in this article his "finding out stuff" hasn't included asking any women: the only two people quoted in the article are both men.

Second, he invites criticism of this article, but this is another trans article on the Guardian without comments because they're terrified, so any criticism or opposing opinion will no doubt only be expressed on....Twitter.

Valid points - I am especially concerned about the targeting of schools and children and genuinely don't know whether those leading the charities are AGP or otherwise - with one exception where it is ragingly clear!

I still think that this is a (small) positive step - if only because the paper I have read for decades and have had to abandon has suddenly published two articles that oppose their view of women as transphobes. Sad to be pleased about such a tiny step - but heigh ho - it's a Monday so am trying to be optimistic.

I still think that this is a (small) positive step

It is. But the Grauniad has a lot to do before I even consider bunting, let alone start hanging it out!

"It's notable that even in this article his "finding out stuff" hasn't included asking any women: the only two people quoted in the article are both men."

Ha! Spot on.

Where does that leave all the transgender women who many of us have known for decades?

I’d be over the moon at a third (fourth) space.

I used to use women’s bathrooms when I was out with female friends and there was no unisex option (always use facilities with unisex changing rooms) but stopped that some time ago.

Happy to report that apart from a few bemused looks as I wait for a cubicle (and one incident of just a young man showing off in front of his friends and trying to embarrass me - which I just took in good humour - he was about 13) that using the men’s bathrooms has been uneventful.

Now, before anyone starts to say that means all men are harmless and should be allowed in the ladies I’d like to point out that that particular group would be self selecting.

And I think we can all imagine what kind of fully intact man is trying to force his way into women’s spaces

trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is

This is the bottom line for me.

I have no issue with using preferred pronouns or names. I think transpeople should be able to live their lives free from prejudice and to be represented, and visible, in all aspects of life. And I think they should be able to live free from fear, violence and persecution.

I think 'genderbending' non confirmity and people who 'increase the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman' (or, more importantly, a man) makes for a more interesting society. I think people should be able to express themselves, enjoy interests/hobbies and pursue careers that are not typically associated with their sex and without being told that boys/girls/men/women can't/shouldn't/don't do that... but that doesn't mean they have changed sex.

And I won't 'pretend' that a transwoman is the same as me because they are not.

As to the points above, my personal feeling is that TIMs who use vile language to talk about women, who issue threats of rape and violence against women don't actually deserve the respect of being referred to as she - they are the ones so concerned with 'gender' and female/feminine behaviours and stereotypes. Yet they are also the ones behaving like the worst sort of men displaying the worst of male behaviour. Women generally don't parade themselves on social media wielding baseball bats and threatening murder, whilst being supported for doing so. You are the ones who think it's all about behaviour. If you want people to pretend you are/treat you like a woman, then take a bit of responsibility and start acting like one.

As for being represented in society and daily life, as far as I can see, TIMs have managed to achieve proportional representation long before women have. TIFs significantly less so mind...

And as for living a life free from fear, violence and persecution goes, for all the literal violence some TIMs claim to experience from women at the other end of the country via their computer keyboards , it's actually men who are the problem. Yet it's women they direct their threats of violence and anger towards and women they hold responsible when men assault them

But I will not stand by and passively let women's language be erased. I will not support women being made to feel scared or uncomfortable to make a man feel better.

As I read in one of the many articles I've read over the past few days, in issues of consent, no always trumps yes.

And I think we can all imagine what kind of fully intact man is trying to force his way into women’s spaces

Exactly.

And I think it's very telling that, obviously based upon posts of people on t'interweb alone, the transwomen I'd be happy to share spaces with are the ones I'm least likely to encounter in them!

in issues of consent, no always trumps yes

That is wonderfully succinct. I'm going to use that. A lot!

I don't think he really gets it. Trans women are women! and that is what legal changes are all about. A biological male can be a woman in every area life (i.e birth cert change, driving licence etc).
If those people are then told they're not actually women and need to use separate spaces there will be a legal challenge and the trans advocates will probably win...because they will be women according to a changed GRA.
It is important to keep pushing against proposed changes. This proposal will not solve the problem.

Well put Truscum (glad you're back, I've missed your posts)

in issues of consent, no always trumps yes

Love this!

There are also a lot of people who have been swept up in the transactivist cause who are neither predators nor woman-haters, but who are simply gullible idiots who imagine that the transactivist cause is a progressive one

This. I think in trying to get the issue out to the general public it is better to propose a reasonable "third space" option which at least then will expose the "transwomen are women #nodebate" stuff for what it is.

Once they have to argue publicly that they are rejecting a third space option because they are genuinely women in all sense biology be damned, a lot more people will "wake up" and see it for what it is.

So I am on the side of any argument in favour of women's rights in this debate, no matter how woolly, is a good one. Particularly so if it is published in the left's newspaper of choice.

But TRAs won't accept a 'third space' because this doesn't validate their identity as women. The only solution they will be satisfied with is full access to women's spaces.