Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

[rowdywoman1]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

"To be honest, the 'escaping the attention of a man' one, doesn't strike me as a fantastic plan. I think you need to put a bit more thought into that one"

I've done this, more than once, and also have helped other girls who were hiding out from weirdos or persistent blokes.

Why is it not a fantastic plan? How did you deal with this when you were young / or how do you deal with it if you are young (18ish)?

@Stillscreaming

You've lost me. Irish women do those things - yes ... and?

What do I need to put more thought into?

Anyway, I am relieved to hear that

There's nothing radical about exclusion

because we can stop being worried about being called Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists then. Phew.

Oh and it's Analytica, dear.

When men tuck patronising little terms of endearment on the end of their statements, to shut women down, we see it for the misogyny is it.

I'm naming your misogyny. If you want to call yourself a feminist, you need to stop that.

I shall be chuckling about lesbians littering the political landscape all day

Best Freudian slip ever!

It's good to see something like this in the guardian.

This bit though

"So: theatres will have to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable. Good: the new Bridge theatre in London is already trying this. "

Most theatres (in london anyway) are v old and have no space. There are massive queues for the ladies already. Not sure how this is going to work / where is the space / who will pay.

"At rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is."

Well they don't have to accept that, do they, and plenty of times they aren't.

there's nothing feminist about shutting the majority of women down becasue they don't agree with you

Entirely agree. So run along and tell your TRA pals that. While you're there, mention that the polling is 3:1 against self-ID.

You've lost me. Irish women do those things - yes ... and?

Irish women deal with heavy periods and breast milk overflow and manage to deal with them with trans women in the next cubical, just like British women do and have been doing for years.

I've also appreciated this, @stillscreaming

Consent is important but a fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority.

Double phew. We can all go home now. A fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority so it's all OK. Panic over.

Why is it not a fantastic plan? How did you deal with this when you were young / or how do you deal with it if you are young (18ish)?

The Suzy Lamplugh Trust offer great advice on personal safety. Generally, you're better off drawing attention to the behaviour than trying to hide.

www.suzylamplugh.org/Pages/FAQs/Category/personal-safety

When men tuck patronising little terms of endearment on the end of their statements, to shut women down, we see it for the misogyny is it.

Believe me it isn't a term of endearment. It's a gesture of contempt I sometimes use for a rather silly person with poor arguments. I'm not a man, and I also do it to men. So no. I don't take instructions on how to post. Given that you go around calling women liars for stating facts you don't agree with, you haven't got much of a leg to stand on here.

just like British women do and have been doing for years.

yeah, and as a British woman I was totally fine with that until men with beards and “gender-fluid” men started claiming they too were genuinely women and needed to be in there as well. And that women who weren’t comfortable with this were bigots.

Irish women deal with heavy periods and breast milk overflow and manage to deal with them with trans women in the next cubical, just like British women do and have been doing for years.

Indeed. But if there was a THIRD SPACE OPTION then these are the only times I'd choose the SINGLE SEX OPTION. And there would then be no need for trans people to be in the next cubicle at all, as they'd have their space, and no one need worry about being vulnerable at all, regardless of intentions. Us horrid Women Who Want To Be Alone and Exclude Trans People with our Radical Feminism would be happy, and the trans women would presumably be happy not to have to share with us and our awful attitudes, free to mingle with the liberal intersectional folk in the unisex toilet. Not sure quite how you've missed the point so spectacularly there, SS.

@LangCleg

Im really disappointed to hear that you don't think that a women is capable of forming and expressing an opionion all by herself but, in this case, that's exactly what you're dealing with.

I'm not a man

You're not a feminist either.

My feminism has generally been about accepting all women

So, not men then. Good.

Of course, anyone dressed up in a latex naked lady suit in public is going to be arrested, the U.K. has a raft of indecency laws to deal with that kind of thing.

No it doesn't. I'm happy to be corrected but my understanding is that nudity is only an indecent act of the intention is to disrupt/offend.

What is 'indecent' about a latex female body suit? It would just be argued that it is not a real naked lady and no crime has been committed. What would they be arrested for?

You are making a lot of assumptions.

Entirely agree. So run along and tell your TRA pals that. While you're there, mention that the polling is 3:1 against self-ID.

This!

yeah, and as a British woman I was totally fine with that until men with beards and “gender-fluid” men started claiming they too were genuinely women and needed to be in there as well. And that women who weren’t comfortable with this were bigots.

How many beardy, gender fluids have you bumped into in the loo?

You're not a feminist either.

Like I need your endorsement.

From the Suzy Lamplugh Trust:

Remember:

· Trust your instincts,

· Never underestimate a threat,

· If you feel uneasy or alarm bells start ringing — act right away.

If you cannot de-escalate the situation:

Get away from the aggressor.

Im really disappointed to hear that you don't think that a women is capable of forming and expressing an opionion all by herself but, in this case, that's exactly what you're dealing with.

The opinion I came to, also all by myself, is that social constructionism rots the brain. I simply point that out when I come across it.

Yes that's interesting NoSquirrels! It seems women should listen to their feelings when threatened and not "get over it".

How many beardy, gender fluids have you bumped into in the loo?

Have indeed bumped into blokes with beards. Assumed it was a case of getting the wrong toilets and leaving in a hurry but hey, who knows, right?

Point is: either you think it’s okay for male-bodied people, beards and everything, to be in there. Or you don’t. You can’t say “well of course it’s perfectly fine” and also “well of course it would never happen”.

@NoSquirrels

Trans women already have a space. In the ladies, with the rest of us who are legally women.

I'm fine with you not wanting self id, as I say we have no problem with it here but if your government decide not to go that way, I have no problems with that. However, trans women, with GRCs are legally women and have the protection of the law. They don't need a third space.

If you don't want to continue to piss next to them, as you've been doing for the last 14 years, you're going to need to find a room. Another room.

Also from the SLT:

Remember, the earlier you spot a potential problem arising the more choices you have to avoid it.

From the Suzy Lamplugh Trust:...

I'm surprised the SLT are proferring such outdated advice.

I thought we were all about re-educating women out of trusting their instincts nowadays...