Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

[rowdywoman1]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

A fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority

Change the language for everyone (tick)
Change the definition of the word woman (tick)
Change socially accepted norms such as sex segregation (tick)
Change the laws (tick)
Redefine the penis as a female organ (tick)
Redefine lesbianism to include sex with be penised men (tick)
Redefine consent to exclude a woman's rights to consent (tick)

What have I missed?

No it doesn't. I'm happy to be corrected but my understanding is that nudity is only an indecent act of the intention is to disrupt/offend.

Firstly it's not nudity, it's a latex suit and secondly, why do you keep locking up that naked hiker then?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9407444/Naked-rambler-bares-all-as-he-walks-free-from-prison.html

Have indeed bumped into blokes with beards. Assumed it was a case of getting the wrong toilets and leaving in a hurry but hey, who knows, right?

I suppose it could have been a trans man, going along with your sex segregation wishes?

Trans women already have a space. In the ladies, with the rest of us who are legally women.

No issue with women who are LEGALLY women.

I'm fine with you not wanting self id, as I say we have no problem with it here but if your government decide not to go that way, I have no problems with that. However, trans women, with GRCs are legally women and have the protection of the law. They don't need a third space.

I know that. I agree that trans women with a GRC are legally women. They can come in the ladies, as they have been doing for ages.

They have been independently assessed and ticked all the boxes required. I'm no more interested in what they're doing in the cubicle than they are in my bodily fluids.

I am strongly anti self-ID, because then anyone with a penis can say they're a woman.

I'm so pleased to hear you're on my side with this, SS. Who knew? You've been doing such a marvellous job at appearing to misunderstand, obfuscate and irritate. But now I know that you have no problem with us not wanting self ID then we're all cool.

Most theatres (in london anyway) are v old and have no space. There are massive queues for the ladies already. Not sure how this is going to work / where is the space / who will pay.

Take away some of the current men's facilities, perhaps? Let them do some budging up to accommodate TRA demands

Firstly it's not nudity, it's a latex suit and secondly, why do you keep locking up that naked hiker then?

You were the one who said people wearing naked lady latex body suits would be arrested under indecency laws!

I pointed out that it wouldn't be an offence because it isn't a naked lady

Why do you think that person would be arrested under indecency laws?

I haven't locked up anyone personally and I haven't read the case file so I can't answer the naked hiker question for you.

@ rowdywoman1

You've missed what's being discussed, which is single sex verses single gender spaces. I'm pointing out that we haven't has single sex spaces for a very long time, responses are mixed. Someone might have seen a beard but she's not sure which loo she was in and, anyway, it's not about actual beards, it's about potential beards.

You don't need to pull in the rest of the tropes yet. Save them for later, when things slow down.

I'd like to keep the option to say - you're a man, get out, thank you very much.
Women aren't going to have to find another room. Men are going to have to stop invading our spaces. Transwomen are men. Not women.
I worry for the trans people who are trying to live a quiet life.

If you don't want to continue to piss next to them, as you've been doing for the last 14 years, you're going to need to find a room. Another room.

Doesn't take much push back to break out the MRA rhetoric, does it? Of course, non-consenting women should be pushed out of the public sphere. Of course they should. Why on earth would feminism say anything different?

Like I say - brain rot.

There are fewer than 10k GRC holders in the entire UK. No woman has been "pissing" next to them for the last fourteen years.

There is no doubt that the 3rd space option will be expensive. Particularly in schools where teenage girls are being told that they must share changing rooms with boys self identifying as transgender girls. Few schools have individual cubicles in changing rooms or their swimming pools.
However, if we are not going to undermine a child's right to consent to undress in front of the opposite sex (and understanding consent is as critical as it gets in the light of recent court cases) then the money will have to be found. Hopefully all the well funded trans charities can allocate some of their funding to schools to enable the building of individual cubicles - problem solved!

I'm so pleased to hear you're on my side with this, SS. Who knew? You've been doing such a marvellous job at appearing to misunderstand, obfuscate and irritate. But now I know that you have no problem with us not wanting self ID then we're all cool.

No, we're really not cool. As you can see from all the tropes that rowdywoman1 dragged in, this has nothing to do with self id. Self id is a side issue.

I suppose it could have been a trans man, going along with your sex segregation wishes?

I wouldn’t know. I don’t tend to ask anyone in the toilets about their gender identities.

But again: yes I have shared toilets with trans women, yes I was fine with it. Many of us have done this, have supported them in their push for rights, were happy about the GRA going through.

What do you think has changed? Why do you think so many feminist women like me are now not cheering on self-ID? You’re trying to fit it into a narrative of “see, you naive bigots, you’ve been peeing next to trans women all along and never even knew!”, but that’s not the case. Do you think we’re maybe responding to something that’s changed, here?

Unless of course it is the act of undressing in front of girls that matters but that can't be the motivation as that would be sinister and creepy!

Nope - not figurative or metaphorical 'tropes' - cold hard verifiable facts!

No, we're really not cool. As you can see from all the tropes that rowdywoman1 dragged in, this has nothing to do with self id. Self id is a side issue.

Oh no, SS. I just don't accept that, I'm afraid. You're on our side. I refuse to acknowledge that you object to it. Majority rules, and I bet most posters on this thread will be happy to accommodate you next to us - if you're uncomfortable with sharing with us nasty TERFs then I'm sorry, but you'll just have to accept it. Life's nicer when you just agree.

The issue is that a man cannot become a woman not whether they use a toilet or not.

@TheGoldenBough

One doesn't have to actually be naked to outrage public decency, the naked lady latex body suit, would cover it. There is no fear of seeing anyone dressed like that in Tesco, and the police not bring able to arrest and charge.

The naked lady latex body suite is already well covered under UK law.

Outraging public decency (OPD) At common law it is an offence to do in public any act of a lewd, obscene or disgusting nature which outrages public decency. Although this may be widely interpreted, most cases will involve indecent exposure of the human body.

As you can see from all the tropes that rowdywoman1 dragged in

JFC. Consent (of teenage girls, no less) is now a synonym for trope. You've said some bloody misogynistic things hereabouts, StillScreaming, but that one takes the cake. And the bloody cake shop.

@stillscreaming

Maria Miller's plans are at publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39007.htm#_idTextAnchor252

Why demographics matter:

1. When I was in Ireland (several times) I noted that, outside Dublin and especially in small rural settlements, people were overtly religious and socially-conservative, considerably more so than in comparably-sized settlements here. This is likely to discourage transition unless the trans person moves to Dublin.
2. When the only public loo at the filling station is a single, accessible toilet, no one cares what sex or gender the other people using the loo are.

I don't think Irish feminists should brag about how progressive Ireland is while your compatriots still have to fly to the UK to terminate a pregnancy. Until they don't, I'll keep funding them to do so, no matter what their gender id.

You’re trying to fit it into a narrative of “see, you naive bigots, you’ve been peeing next to trans women all along and never even knew!”, but that’s not the case. Do you think we’re maybe responding to something that’s changed, here?

No I don't becasue, I think,if you were doing that, you'd be pushing back against the extremists and you aren't.

I think that some of the anti self id narrative is alarmist but I don't think it's bigoted. However, I don't see those who go along with it kicking back against the bigots or those who are abusive. They don't even kick back against the misogyny. That makes me suspicious of their motives.

the naked lady latex body suit, would cover it

Do you know that for definite?

Tbh, naked lady latex body suits are just a bit horrific to look at and ridiculous. I'm not really interested in them.

You just seem awfully confident that existing laws will protect us...

Oh no, SS. I just don't accept that, I'm afraid. You're on our side. I refuse to acknowledge that you object to it. Majority rules, and I bet most posters on this thread will be happy to accommodate you next to us - if you're uncomfortable with sharing with us nasty TERFs then I'm sorry, but you'll just have to accept it. Life's nicer when you just agree.

I don't call you TERFS, you're not radical and you're not feminists. I don't want to to have a third space but I'm happy to accept your demands for one.

But again: yes I have shared toilets with trans women, yes I was fine with it.

In an ironic echo of ManFriday, I've actually gone swimming many times with a trans person - they call themselves transsexual and despise the term transgender, I should emphasise - so that they could change in the women's. My pal didn't ask me to go along so that they would feel safe; they asked me to go along so that they wouldn't alarm any women, despite being years post-op.

This is something StillScreaming will never understand, in their quest to override women's consent and boundaries with no regard for the slippery slope that it is.

TheGoldenBough

Don't take my word for it, why don't you pop into the police station, describe the outfit or take a few images from the Internet and ask if it's alright for the High Street.

LanceClegg
People need to see that this is how little these issues have been thought through - that teenagers and their rights are mere collateral in a fight for trans right.
I have worked with teenagers for decades and I know (because I listen to them and talk with them) that the majority demand levels of privacy. They hate open plan changing rooms. They don't want to shower, in front of even their own sex. They are mortified at schools which hand out emergency sanitary protection in front of others. They are also so vulnerable to pressure from others. None of them want to be seen of as difficult or 'transphobic' towards a vulnerable child - but nor do they want to struggle to get their swimming costume on in front of a teenage boy, no matter how lovely they are. And there is nothing wrong with those views.