Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Allington your life is tough elsewhere argument is completely irrelevant.

What is the point of asking customers if they are male or female when they book if that is to have no bearing on the accomodation offered?

A single sex berth (however you define it) is not a Universal Human Right.

But a man wanting to self id so that they can use whichever sex segregated facility they feel like is?

No-one has said it's a universal human right. We have said that if a company advertises a single sex service it's reasonable for its customers to expect a single sex service

If they offered shared accommodation or single sex, only when it is possible to so, there would be no case to answer.

A single sex berth (however you define it) is not a Universal Human Right. - agreed
Can you agree that a woman who doesn’t want to share a single sex berth is not equivalent to a racist?

You are all right. All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women.

Well it’s funny you should say that because the ‘all men are a danger to us’ line is used by TRAs to gain access to women’s spaces.

It’s a totally illogical argument. But it goes:

1. We are scared of violence from men
2. So we, actual men, with the same rate and pattern of sexual violence against women as regular old men will need to come into women’s spaces.
3. Oh and anyone who objects is a hateful TERF trying to erase us from history. Shut up women.

You couldn’t make it up. It’s just ludicrous. Except it’s really happening and women are beating the brunt of it.

I am always very impressed when women say they have slept in mixed sex environments without ever waking up to being groped.
It happened to me many times in my youth in the sixties and I am told by young girls that it often happens to them these days.
You have been very fortunate.

Well it’s funny you should say that because the ‘all men are a danger to us’ line is used by TRAs to gain access to women’s spaces.

Exactly.

I hav'nt read about women only toilets in India. I have been involved in the drive to make toilets (flushing or chemical) available to all in Cape Town PLUS proper lighting and policing to make it safe to women and children. Given the horrendous levels of sexual violence in townships. What have you done apart from read about it? In what way have you left your comfort zone?

Why is this a virtue competition?

I am always very impressed when women say they have slept in mixed sex environments without ever waking up to being groped.

Damn right. I did my share of youth hostellong as a young ‘in and witnessed thefts, attempted rapes and (along with other occupants of the dorm) pretty much pulled a guy off a sobbing woman once.
It is not a safe environment and I’d never do it again. Not would I encourage anyone to.

You are all right. All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women.

That is what they keep telling us, every day on the tumblr and twitter and Facebook. That they intend to beat or rape us into submission.
I like to take the advice of Maya Angelou and when they tell me who they are I believe them.

Why is this a virtue competition?

It's not. It's a discussion about women feeling safe on overnight sleeper trains. It is okay for women to talk about this.

I hope anyone with a booking that wants a refund due to the new policy will get one. I can't see how anyone else has an interest

Why do you "have an interest"?

What have you done apart from read about it? In what way have you left your comfort zone?
At this point I think you must have run out of things to throw against the wall to see if they will stick.

Why is this a virtue competition?

Well you're virtue signalling for Britain so one might ask you the same.

The argument is just ridiculous.

We are scared of violence from men
Well yes, we women are too. It’s a shit situation eh?
So we will be in your space
Eh? But you’re a bloke. No. What about our safety
Bigot!

I can only imagine that most people have no idea what the reforms will actually do. They do not benefit people with gender dysphoria. They do not benefit the old school transsexual community who were largely accepted and coexisted well.
They do not benefit ANYONE except men who want to enter women’s spaces.

Scotrail are going to have their arses sued to high heaven and back after the first assault.

Allington do you understand how much you are telling people about yourself here?

That is what they keep telling us, every day on the tumblr and twitter and Facebook. That they intend to beat or rape us into submission.

Allington seems very naive. But I expect she'd still think they are expressing their true authentic selves. Or that they aren't the trans people she means, and therefore her circular arguments are sound.

Let me suggest a solution.

All women who have booked a single sex double sleeper as for a refund or change to a non-sleeper seat with the difference refunded. I'll back you all the way.

In future, don't book one of a double sleeper unless you are willing to share with a man

End of problem?

Allington

Just to clarify, as long as sex segregated berths do exist, if a transgender woman, no surgery, claimed it was their right to share with a female passenger, and said that asking them to share with a man was a violation of their rights, you would also say "no, that's not your right" to them?

Essentially I'm wondering where you think a non surgical trans person goes, under the current system of sex segregation.

But if a woman voices that same concern then tough shit because that is just her 'preconception' and she will just have to avoid that situation?

If we feel like this, we must be "re-educated," according to new guidance for various organisations.

End of problem?

No, not at all. It merely serves to highlight the much greater problem here.

End of problem?

No, because it disadvantages the woman who doesn’t want to share with a man, financially and in terms of amenity access.

In future, don't book one of a double sleeper unless you are willing to share with a man

The single cabins are more expensive, and prohibited by some employers who send employees on business travel (including an employer I had).

Come on. This is not hard to get. You can follow this, you really can.

In future, don't book one of a double sleeper unless you are willing to share with a man

But the rail company is not selling shared accommodation as being mixed sex so why should a customer be willing to share with a man?

The single cabins are more expensive, and prohibited by some employers who send employees on business travel (including an employer I had)

To be fair they are not that more expensive and an employer who won't shell out for the small difference is an idiot for several reasons.