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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Schoolgirls having to wear shorts under their skirts

112 replies

AreYouTerfEnough · 28/03/2018 03:39

Schoolgirls wear shorts to stop ‘upskirts’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e3c3da6-3203-11e8-9cf6-8fd69d6da6df

OP posts:
LovelyBranches · 28/03/2018 09:48

When I was in school we were made to wear skirts and i hated it. The difference in uniforms was insulting to me because the boys got to wear warm clothes whilst we shivered but looked feminine.

In PE lessons we worn polo neck tops and gym knickers which I will forever blame for my hatred of sports. The boys were allowed to wear trousers and polo tops. I would have engaged far more of I wasn’t worried about my legs being shaved, my period starting or showing off my arse to my peers.

I would personally ban all segregated uniforms. Boys and girls would be allowed to wear what they wanted so if boys wanted to wear a skirt they could, but girls would be allowed to wear skirts or trousers and PE uniforms would never be anything less than shorts and t shirt.

Micah · 28/03/2018 10:02

At my son's school they now allow girls to wear trousers - he left a while ago but I often see pupils from his school and have not seen any of the girls wearing trousers

I think we are so far down the gender stereotype path that skirts are no longer an option for girls in the culture of a school setting.

We moved recently and both new schools, on primary, one secondary, have the option of skirts or trousers. Both my dd’s picked trousers- their previous schools hadn’t allowed them and they were delighted.

Their first day at school and both were the only females in trousers. Primary dd wanted a skirt, but by the time a weekend cane round for me to buy one, all the girls in her class had switched to trousers too.

Secondary dd- bearing in mind this is a massive school of about 3000 pupils, is still the only female- identifying girl wearing trousers. She regularly has issues with teachers and students assuming she’s male. The only other biological girl she knows that wears trousers is now identifying as male.

It seems that if you want people to know you’re female, you wear a skirt. If you wear trousers, people assume male.

So i don’t think the unilateral wearing of skirts by schoolgirls is a free choice or preference. It is very much influenced by our new gender culture and social pressures.

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2018 10:15

Ereshkigal I have heard people say this before. I don’t like them but I’m interested to understand what makes them your preference?

I just don't find fitted trousers as comfortable as a skirt. I wear leggings on the bottom under short dresses if it's cold. Climate is the good old UK.

Gileswithachainsaw · 28/03/2018 10:22

micha

I expect you are correct

However I do think if uniform manufacturers actually met with children when designing their trousers and the sizing/style/look wa sbt so ridiculous more girls might wear them.

I don't know who or what they are designed to be worn by but it isn't junior school/high school girls Hmm

KittiesInsane · 28/03/2018 10:26

DD would happily wear just the shorts all summer, and treats the skirt as a sort of optional frill on the top. She somewhat pities the boys as they only have the option of long trousers all year (secondary).

Shorts (plus indecently short flippy skirt) are a better option for cycling to school than the flappy trousers her school seems so keen to promote, or the 'at least knee length skirt' that no one beyond year 7 wears.

upsideup · 28/03/2018 10:29

I think its just sensible to wear shorts under a skirt, why would ypu want everyone to see yur underwear and not everyone wants to see your underwear.
I have put shorts under my dd's skirt since she was in reception, she
does handstands and cartwheels non stop, I wouldnt encourage her to stand in the middle of the playground holding her skirt up showing everyone her underwear so I dont want her doing the same upside down.
When would boys be allowed to just flash their underwear at girls and female teachers by bending down, doing handstands, standing on chair etc and not be told to cover up?

bigKiteFlying · 28/03/2018 10:29

Both primary schools and the secondary my children have attended have allowed girls to wear either trousers or skirts.

Despite me buying both options for DD1 all of primary and offering to do so for secondary she prefers skirts and only wears skirts. I've no idea why though she always wears opaque tights as well.

Thing is 25 years ago at secondary I didn’t have to suffer upshot but still got harassed by boys with body parts and bra straps or bands being pinged – I don’t think that behaviour was ever punished or stamped down on by school staff we were left to deal with it ourselves.

So I agree it’s a behavioural problem – one that’s changed form with technology.

DD2 often wear trousers however summer dresses in hot weather are also liked last summer she got very upset and would only wear dresses with over shorts which I then had to buy – I also tried girl boxers she could wear over pants.

While this wasn’t official school policy turned out some staff and other pupils were ones telling off for not having modesty shorts on under her dress and over her pants– she was 8 and a normal none developed 8 and was essential being shamed into feeling she had to ware extra clothing.

CakeOfThePan · 28/03/2018 10:33

This isn’t new.

I used to wear shorts under my skirts 30 years ago it was just more practical. Every girl did. We were the first year to wear trousers so we ended with the option.

bigKiteFlying · 28/03/2018 10:39

Wearing shorts under skirts was not the done thing when I was growing up later 80's early 90s where i was. No-one did it.

I can't say it's a universal thing at DD2 primary now - so many girls needing to be told they should do it and so many bemused parents asking what they mean and where to get some.

It's certainly something that is increasing becoming normal – I wonder if it’s a regional thing that's spreading.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 28/03/2018 10:41

I prefer wearing skirts and dresses to be honest, and always have done. I don't think girls (or boys) should be banned from wearing them.

Same here, I rarely wear trousers. Actually I think I only wear trousers (and skin tight leggings at that) in the gym.
I don’t find them at all comfortable.

GoingFullNorman · 28/03/2018 10:52

There is a clear issue with sexual harassment in our culture and society. Any action by boys falling under sexual harassment or bullying should of course be dealt with. It isn’t, though, is it? And all too often the same old stereotypes fall into play - he didn’t mean it, it was just a joke, he’s only being mean because he likes you, if you weren’t so uptight you wouldn’t mind, and so on.

There is also a problem with cultural stereotypes and attitudes affecting children’s choices re: what they wear.

Children like to fit in (generalisation). They like to find their tribe, and be a part of it. This will have an effect on clothes choices. Which is why, when there is a choice of skirts or trousers in school uniform, girls will often choose skirts.

My dd1wears trousers to school. Always has. Much more practical - she has severe ASD and learning difficulties, and wouldn’t be able to cope (motor skills wise) with tights and a skirt. She would:

end up with tights halfway between knee and crotch, and all twisted.

end up with her skirt tucked into her tights/pants after going to the toilet, or worse, not move it out of the way sufficiently when going to the toilet

not be aware of times when she might need to moderate her actions to avoid being exposed (windy days, for eg)

not b aware of social norms, and so not think about sitting “nicely” etc (ok for a small child, she’s now 13 and going through puberty)

and so on.

These are just a few of the things which affect younger girls, right from a time when even an NT child with no motor skills issues would struggle, wrt clothes choices, but they are expected to put up with modifying their behaviour in the interests of looking “girly” or dressing how society expects them to dress.

My dd2 has to wear a skirt as her school uniform. She hates it. Impractical - can’t run without looking undignified. Can’t climb high on the climbing wall at break in case boys look up her skirt. Couldnt use the play equipment when younger because comments were made (by boys and girls) about seeing pants etc. No useful pockets to stow anything away (swatch/fob for moving around school, money for charity days/bake sales etc, a list of what she needs to remember, a tissue when she has a cold, etc - all things boys can manage so much more easily and freely with their clothing allowance). And don’t get her started on the knock on choice of footwear, and the differences between girl/boy School shoes! She often comments on how dd1’s school is much more sensible with uniform choices than her school is (trousers, as above - girls are allowed to wear skirts but none do - and “a sensible closed toe shoe in predominantly blue, black or brown”) as she has permanently cold feet most o the year, and often wet too. Bonkers.

WickedLazy · 28/03/2018 11:00

I had a huge post typed out but it went poof.

My thoughts are, there are sooo many creeps and sexual predators about now, that people feel little girls and women should be covered up, for their own good, as being dressed modestly puts them at less risk of being preyed on.

Why is unwanted sexual attention and behaviour from men, and their lack of self control not being addressed?
At least 1 in 20 women in England and Wales has been a victim of sexual crime. Wearing shorts under skirts isn't going to fix this.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 28/03/2018 11:06

It seems that if you want people to know you’re female, you wear a skirt. If you wear trousers, people assume male.

This isn't the experience I've had with myself or DD at all.
The school I went to introduced trousers for girls around the time I left, so I really can't say about that.
At DDs first school, she was the only girl to wear trousers (no particular reason, just her personal preference, and nothing to do with boys).
Now she's 13, more girls are wearing trousers, but still a minority. Enough of them that nobody would assume they were boys.
From what I see, if you allow girls to choose, I'd say 80% maybe choose to still wear skirts.

ThisIsTheFirstStep · 28/03/2018 11:09

going yes to everything you wrote. 'It's just a joke' drives me mad. It's so unfair. Men and boys can get away with this shitty behaviour because no one takes it seriously.

The other day on the subway, some creepy old guy kept trying to talk to me. I told him firmly not to talk to me, but he insisted on doing so. Not one person stepped in to help. We ALL need to do better at this and stick up for people we see being harassed. That includes, especially, teachers at school.

yawningyoni · 28/03/2018 11:11

Another teacher doing it from 2008

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/teacher-filmed-up-girls-skirts-61550

WickedLazy · 28/03/2018 11:12

I went to an all girls school, and we weren't allowed to wear trousers.

It was the same when my sis was there, until one of the girls decided she was really a boy. He was allowed to wear trousers. That really made me think/annoyed me.

I had chunky legs and hated wearing skirts. I don't even own one now. I do wear dresses though.

brilliotic · 28/03/2018 11:48

At our schools, making girls wear trousers would not be removing choice. It would merely be changing requirements. At the moment they are, sadly, required to wear skirts. And boys are required to wear trousers. No one has any choice. They still would have exactly the same (zero) choice if girls had to wear trousers just like the boys.
If you are going to require children to wear specific items of clothing, this should not in any way be gendered, IMO.
They say uniform is all about looking smart and showing pride. And hence they are teaching girls and boys that boys look smart in trousers, but girls don't, they must wear skirts to look smart.

No it's not either/or between teaching children to behave decently/to only accept decent behaviour towards themselves, and to think about equal uniforms. You can do both.

In fact, if we weren't always so keen on highlighting the differences between girls and boys (e.g. by requiring them to wear different clothes) then teaching decent behaviour would be easier too. Because in order for boys to 'objectify' girls (as a group), girls have to be 'othered' first. How better to do that than to stick them into different uniforms?!

MiaowTheCat · 28/03/2018 11:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThisIsTheFirstStep · 28/03/2018 11:56

miaow I agree, nothing wrong with skirts, I hated trousers as a child because they felt really tight and uncomfortable. I still hate them unless they are wide legged or stretchy eg leggings or jeans with lycra.

Why should we have our fashion choices dictated by pervy boys?

BertrandRussell · 28/03/2018 12:01

"Because in order for boys to 'objectify' girls (as a group), girls have to be 'othered' first."

That's happened long before they get to school!

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 28/03/2018 12:02

At my son's school they now allow girls to wear trousers - he left a while ago but I often see pupils from his school and have not seen any of the girls wearing trousers

I think we are so far down the gender stereotype path that skirts are no longer an option for girls in the culture of a school setting.

At my all girls school it was a complete mix of girls in trousers and in skirts (except in winter, when most of us wore trousers).

At my next school (with a much less strict uniform incidentally), it would have been social suicide for a girl to wear trousers.

I think it's entirely down to the culture of the school, rather than innate preferences for skirts/trousers.

Although personally, I'm full on anti-uniform these days, since my kids started going to non-uniform schools.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 28/03/2018 12:34

If you are going to require children to wear specific items of clothing, this should not in any way be gendered, IMO.

But then why should the male option be the default?
This is covered time and time again on this forum - usually everyone hates it when the default option is the male option.

Gileswithachainsaw · 28/03/2018 12:42

Alot of the blazers are unisex or "default male"

Which is why they look so terrible .

mummybear701 · 28/03/2018 12:43

How very sad but remember its the upskirters who are the problem not the girls themselves. In saying that it sounds unhealthy wearing extra layers, trousers or shorts on their own would be more comfortable depending on the schools uniform. Schools have to be tougher on this conduct.

reallyanotherone · 28/03/2018 12:55

But then why should the male option be the default?
This is covered time and time again on this forum - usually everyone hates it when the default option is the male option

Trousers are only the “ male option” if you view clothes as gendered.

I don’t think i am wearing mens clothes every time i put on a pair of jeans. It doesn’t mean I am dressing like a man.

If we stopped with the mind set that certain clothes are for boys, and some are for girls, then we could just choose the most practical garment for the activity at hand.

Which, for children at school, is trousers.

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