Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Remember the Girlguides thread? We have our first success!

228 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 25/03/2018 12:08

A few weeks ago I posted here and in AIBU about Girlguiding UK and their transgender policy - I'm a leader. I'm also using the App so can't link to the threads but will come back later when I'm on a laptop.

I did not expect such a large response - over 800 posts in all. The support has been amazing. Via those threads, some people made contact with me and another leader and bravely agreed to speak out about their concerns.

We now have a story published in today's Sunday Times! This couldn't have happened without your support, input and encouragement. I'm grateful to everyone.

The only downside is the original article was heavily edited at the 11th hour to make way for other stories. Lots of other points and quotes were cut out. I made it clear to the reporter that I love Guiding and it was a tough decision to be publicly critical. I was also clear that GG's policy, however misguided, was written with good intentions. This was all lost in the editing.

The important thing is the message is out there now and GG will have to do something.

Do also check out the comments - lots of common sense and reasonableness. If we can demonstrate that there's lots of interest then we have more chance of a follow up so please leave comments if you can; I plan to stay in touch with the ST.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

I'm off to name change and then go to lunch but I'll be back later. Thanks again

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
ChattyLion · 29/03/2018 20:13

WTF? If they have a decision they can defend, why don’t they defend it. Why don’t they address the actual issues that have been raised like the massive safeguarding issues? Like the exclusion of some groups of girls and women because of this policy? Like WTF their charitable objects (which only refer to Girls and women) even mean now?
That is appalling and absolutely not an adequate response- they can’t just refuse to engage any further.
Where are the urgent web chats for members, the voting opportunity for members to support or oppose the decision, the newsletter articles explaining their reasons, and the proper consultation of members and the public on this policy. I am seriously shocked.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/03/2018 20:17

Fairplay for Women have just published an excellent, and very detailed piece on this:

fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 29/03/2018 20:43

That reply is a shocker.

M0reGinPlease · 29/03/2018 20:53

It absolutely can be taken further- next step is the Board of Trustees. They legally cannot dismiss a complaint.

YesItsADebate · 29/03/2018 21:23

Their reply is appalling. I would escalate this to the next step.

ChattyLion · 29/03/2018 21:26

Thanks for the link - That FPFW document is excellent.

Notanexcitingname · 29/03/2018 22:37

I'm pretty certain that if a charity changes their charitable objective(s), that must be approved by the charity commission. A change from single-sex to single-gender is a change, is it not?

I'm not conversant enough with the rules around charities to know if there are any exceptions to this requirement.

AgnesBadenPowell · 30/03/2018 00:29

That email @DNAnotGRA Shock

Nice little dig in there too about how inclusive they are - and we're not?

What would be really inclusive is making guiding open to all females, be they gender non conforming or otherwise.

Do take a look at the Fair Play For Women document. There's also a Facebook group if you'd like to join us - search "sisters to all guides"

OP posts:
Datun · 30/03/2018 00:43

Just posting the link again, as I had trouble with the formatting of the link above.

fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/#g5.0

Point 5.0 is about parents not being informed. Seeing it written down makes it look absolutely bonkers.

fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/#g5.0

Italiangreyhound · 30/03/2018 01:31

Such a laugh about them being inclusive. I do not think they are inclusive of girls going through, what I have heard described as, rapid onset gender dysphoria.

Datun · 30/03/2018 08:35

Italiangreyhound

Exactly. ROGD is anathema to the trans-ideology. Because it undermines the born in the wrong body narrative.

Transactivists constantly try and say social contagion isn't a thing.

So it's unsurprising, since they have been informed by trans pressure groups, that the girl guides are confused.

Their raison d'être is to encourage girls to break out of their gender constraints. But now, if they do, they are encouraged to leave!

Purely because of the trans-ideology. Which makes them feel they must identify as a boy.

Girl Guides are letting girls down. Of course. The trans ideology always lets females down, whilst benefiting males.

This huge mismatch between what transgenderism says it is, and what it really is becomes very apparent when you see played out in real life.

It comprehensively shows up the true nature of oppression.

Women and girls who transition gain nothing from it. In terms of benefit. They may have their symptoms of gender dysphoria alleviated, but that would entirely depend upon the reasons for having gender dysphoria in the first place. If it's to escape from a world that constrains and objectifies them, they may be able to deceive that world, but they haven't fixed the problem, only put an elastoplast over the symptom.

And although it's the same for boys, the fact that they retain all their privileges, and invariably get some added, shows up the inherent power dynamic for what it is and how it doesn't change.

The one thing transgenderism isn't is liberating and progressive.

And meanwhile, all the women who aren't trans are getting shafted on the back of it. So nearly all women.

I wish girl guides could read these threads, and come to a better understanding.

Mogleflop · 30/03/2018 08:58

So have they just ignored it all?

FencingFightingTorture35 · 30/03/2018 09:23

I understand from your emails that you do not agree with our practice around Equality and Diversity

Aka 'you are a bigot, madam.'

What a farce. I'm so cross. They haven't stopped to think that women have generally been socialised to be nice and caring and inoffensive. If a group of women are raising serious concerns, then they should be listened to. It's not like people are sending letters saying 'we hate trans people.'

cheminotte · 30/03/2018 09:51

Well done Agnes

M0reGinPlease · 30/03/2018 09:54

If a group of women are raising serious concerns, then they should be listened to

Something tells me the only way GG are going to change their stance on this is if parents kick-off en masse.

InspiredByIntegrity · 30/03/2018 10:11

Or if leaders threaten to stop camps en masse.

When a parent finds out that a young person with male genitalia will literally be sleeping alongside their daughter and they don't like the idea it will be the leader who gets the flack. The leader who will not be trusted as they have not been open about planned arrangements. The leader whose reputation within their wider community that will be torn to shreds. "But I'm not allowed to tell you under Guiding rules" will not save a reputation.

Datun · 30/03/2018 10:11

I don't understand it either. Basic common sense seems suddenly to be considered 'old-fashioned'.

It becomes horribly emotive, too, when people start saying oh my God you think my child is a predator.

Who the hell wants to be accused of that? It effectively shuts down discussion and/or objection.

Because of course no one does think that.

That doesn't alter the facts though, that women and girls are routinely subjected to predatory behaviour.

59% of girls and young women aged 13–21 said in 2014 that they had faced some form of sexual harassment at school or college in the past year.

Almost a third (29%) of 16–18-year-old girls say they have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school.

41% of UK girls aged 14 to 17 who reported an intimate relationship experienced some form of sexual violence from their partner.

22% of young girls aged 7–12 have experienced jokes of a sexual nature from boys.

"This inquiry has uncovered the scale and impact of sexual harassment and sexual violence in schools across England which must be acted upon urgently. e evidence we have gathered paints a concerning picture: the sexual harassment and abuse of girls being accepted as part of daily life; children of primary school age learning about sex and relationships through exposure to hard-core pornography; teachers accepting sexual harassment as being “just banter”; and parents struggling to know how they can best support their children."

It's not necessary to even speculate on intentions. The girls in this report will be reflected in the girl guide membership. Intentions can genuinely be as benign as you like.

But for these girls, privacy and dignity is their's to own, based on their own experience, not others to question or challenge.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/91.pdf

SecondaryConfusion · 30/03/2018 10:28

This is so depressing, feels like no-one really cares about women.

The fair play for women lays out all the legal reasons why girl guidings policy is ill thoight out. We need to find a way of getting their lawyers to consider the challenge of a discrimination case.

I can’t believe I could send my girl off to camp and she could be put in a room with a boy, without me now knowing it or having the ability to withdraw her. The alternative is to not let her go to guides, which is a shame as that’s excluding the very girls it’s meant to support.

PositivelyPERF · 30/03/2018 11:16

Just imagine being a young girl who has/is suffering sexual abuse, guiding feels like your only safe space, then you’re told that you’re a bigot if you won’t share with a boy. It would be horrific. Your boundaries are already being destroyed by the abuse, then further stripped away by other adults telling you that YOU are wrong, because you’re not comfortable giving up your last safe place. YOU have to ignore your feelings because a boy/man has more of a righ to have HIS feelings protected. It makes me want to weep.

DNAnotGRA · 30/03/2018 15:31

@AgnesBadenPowell - I have joined the group and sent a message with the email response to the group admin

AgnesBadenPowell · 30/03/2018 15:34

@PositivelyPERF I could weep too. GG is teaching girls that their own boundaries, comfort and privacy don't matter.

I still haven't had a response from GG despite the Sunday Times article. They did send a holding response yesterday to say they get back to me after Easter. We shall see.

I did notice on the @girlguiding twitter feed that they've not responded as far as I can see to any tweets expressing concern about the policy, but they did reply to a trans woman who sent them a picture of one of my tweets, asking what they do with Leaders who break policy and the law (I'm not breaking the law).

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 02/04/2018 21:12

Agnes thank you for pursuing this with them on behalf or current and future Guides. Flowers I hope you get a coherent response and proper engagement from GGUK management at an appropriately high level.

Angryresister · 02/04/2018 21:16

Is it true that no other posts about this are up pending a response from the Girl Guiding board.?

AgnesBadenPowell · 03/04/2018 13:08

@Angryresister I've been suspended from posting on any unofficial Facebook groups for leaders, as have a number of other members of the "sisterstoallguides" Facebook page.

A day after my suspension, an admin of those boards (who is also a volunteer within girlguiding) made a post to say that they've decided it best not to allow threads on the subject, pending a response from GGHQ.

I've not heard anything official from girlguiding yet.

OP posts:
Angryresister · 03/04/2018 16:03

This is really not thought out on the part of whichever body orgaises the guides . Those of us who have tried to point out what is glaringly obvious are being ignored and shut down. Any women with children in guides or brownies must talk to each other ad organise locally.
Meanwhile I saw something from Australia where sex offenders are being allowed to challenge the rule about not working with children, through the courts.. Brave new world indeed . Can only hope that was fake news

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread