Remember the Girlguides thread? We have our first success!

[AgnesBadenPowell]

A few weeks ago I posted here and in AIBU about Girlguiding UK and their transgender policy - I'm a leader. I'm also using the App so can't link to the threads but will come back later when I'm on a laptop.

I did not expect such a large response - over 800 posts in all. The support has been amazing. Via those threads, some people made contact with me and another leader and bravely agreed to speak out about their concerns.

We now have a story published in today's Sunday Times! This couldn't have happened without your support, input and encouragement. I'm grateful to everyone.

The only downside is the original article was heavily edited at the 11th hour to make way for other stories. Lots of other points and quotes were cut out. I made it clear to the reporter that I love Guiding and it was a tough decision to be publicly critical. I was also clear that GG's policy, however misguided, was written with good intentions. This was all lost in the editing.

The important thing is the message is out there now and GG will have to do something.

Do also check out the comments - lots of common sense and reasonableness. If we can demonstrate that there's lots of interest then we have more chance of a follow up so please leave comments if you can; I plan to stay in touch with the ST.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

I'm off to name change and then go to lunch but I'll be back later. Thanks again

Strange that they don't show any consideration for girls or parents completely bizarre.. Are they now 'Trans Guides'?

At the moment all focus is on what is or portrayed as being anti-trans / transphobic / hate speech.

"We are for all girls and always have been. "

Unless they have ? around their "gender" - and we know that girls are the fastest growing group of young people with these questions - in which case they must be managed out ASAP because GG is ONLY for those who "identify as girls" what does that even mean?

They also state that trans girls are girls and trans women are women and so there are NO safeguarding considerations or issues.

Which is total fucking nonsense. They are pretending now that biology doesn't exist - how do they think girls get pregnant then? Oh sorry - old style cunty girls not the new style penis ones. That's a starter for 10.

This is what I sent back in response:

Thank you for your response, I am however deeply concerned about your use of language. You state that the Girl Guiding is a "single gender" organisation surely you mean single sex as you were originally formed to provide opportunities for girls?

The conflation of sex and gender is entirely unhelpful as the Equality Act you refer to is based on sex not gender. If it were not the case then there would be no need for the act as the terms become meaningless. Girls are potentially vulnerable because of the sex not their gender - it is the biological differences between male and female that matters here. To deny biological truth is dishonest and unhelpful with regard to safeguarding practices.

Please would you take these points into consideration particularly with regard to letting parents know if there are young boys attending residentials alongside young girls whose unique biology could realistically result in unwanted pregnancies etc.

Well done, Agnes!

Isn't it incredible how when it comes to people with concerns / GC / women resigning their Labour Party membership, the relatively small numbers of people being prepared to go public is used to imply that their views are immaterial. But when it comes to the number of trans people in the general population, the relatively small number is cited to show that they are a minority who must be listened to at all turns

And that such a tiny minority couldn't possibly cause any problems for anyone ever blah de blah blah can't you just be nice?

we have sought to be responsive and proactive to changing legal requirements

That sounds an awful lot like labour 'getting ahead of the law' I.e. breaking existing laws.

There have been no changing legal requirements when it comes to GGUK being a single sex organisation that I'm aware of. Anyone else know what these changing legal requirements are?

Well done DNAnotGRA

I get the feeling GG panicked and got Gendered Intelligence to draft a response and they just rubber stamped it.

The language/stance is just too consistent with other organisations and doesn't seem specific.

Daff0dil

When I said it doesn't matter what Helen says on Twitter, what I meant was her rants don't affect the law.

I completely agree that skewing the narrative is having a detrimental effect.

But fortunately, this is now getting to a much wider audience, and people are becoming aware of what the actual law says.

These rants on Twitter are not productive. They look over the top and weird. People are blocked for disagreeing, so they are not actually reaching any kind of audience.

They are also, from what I can tell libellous.

Further to Datun's last comment, if anyone sees any tweets or other public posts calling me a bigot, transphobe, a bully of children then please screen shot and send to me. I haven't ruled out legal action. I hold trusted voluntary positions in other organisations - I will not have my reputation damaged

As a pp said it is very worrying that a 6yo is considered trans at all. I just don’t get it.

Well done Agnes. Proud of you.

Agnes thank you for your bravery. Guides need to be free of boys; it's so important for girls to have this. I look back on my time in the guides with such affection and gratitude. I was awkward, too tall, had proper boobs, clever, loved science and astronomy...I stuck out like a sore thumb at my mixed school when all the fraternising started. Guides was the place I could be totally myself, completely free of all that pressure; we did stuff I enjoyed and was good at, and I blossomed into a natural leader in an environment where being appealing to boys was irrelevant. I loved it.

That standard response from GirlGuiding has really confused me. They are talking about supporting all young people etc. But their charitable aims are NOT all young people, only girls and young women. beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=306016&subid=0

There seems to be some very strange conflation of gender with biological sex going on. It’s written into their policy which talks about people changing from ‘female’ to ‘male’ and vice versa.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/our-statement-on-recent-coverage-about-our-equality-and-diversity-policy/

Also how does a policy that says that biological sex and gender are the exact same thing , even work out in practice?

The policy talks about expectations around a Guide leaving when the individual doesn’t ‘identify’ as a girl or woman. What does that even mean? What’s the actual test or requirement for anyone’s commitment to their gender identity? Is something about this going to be added into the Promise? And why does it even matter as far as coming along to Guides, what a female child/young woman’s gender identity is?!

They are still female kids/young women whatever their gender identity is. Guiding is intended for females. So what’s the problem?

Guiding is voluntary, so if girls and young women don’t want to be involved in it, because it doesn’t fit in with their gender identity or any other reason, then they don’t have to be.

Which means if the girl or young woman DOES want to remain involved in the Guides and Girl Guiding knows that their gender identity is uncertain, or fluid, or definitely not girl or woman, then the policy would appear to be saying that at some point, that person of the female sex is going to have to be asked not to come to Guides any more.

But what on earth could GG ever actually write in that letter to the girl/young woman and her parents, given their policy that gender=sex, that would make any sense?

^‘Dear Guide. Please don’t come back to the Guides next week because it’s only meant for girls and boys who subscribe to feminine gender stereotypes.

You, on the other hand, seem more interested in XYZ and your manner is quite XYZ. Your new short haircut looks a bit XYZ and you said to someone that you felt you might be XYZ.

So we’re sure you’ll understand that we feel we can no longer accommodate you, because we are Guiding for Girls..

... oh, hang on.’

The kicking out of TIMs from women's spaces is deeply troubling. Especially for the ones who're teens, they're going to need those spaces at some point, and I think that we as adult women need to hold those spaces for them so that they can come back if and when they need to. Those girls who think they're boys may want to leave the Guides now, but what if they didn't? What if they do but then realize that they've lost something later? Everything I've heard from TIFs indicates that sexual harassment and assault continue to be huge problems for many of them after the change in "identity", and for that reason alone they need to be able to continue to access women's spaces and the solidarity of other women.

I'm so worried for those girls.

The kicking out of TIFs, I mean. TIM's shouldn't be there in the first place.

The kicking out of TIMs from women's spaces is deeply troubling

Wrong, and uneccessary. This extract from the gender policy from a women's college seems to me to strike the right balance :

'In relation to current students, we consider each case on an individual basis, focusing on what is in the best interests of that individual, in full discussion with that student. Should the student decide that they would prefer to be in a mixed college if transitioning to male or if rejecting a binary gender category, the College would be fully supportive of a transfer and do all that was possible to bring one about, but this would only be one option, and full tutorial support would be given to the student throughout regardless of the option the student chose to take.'

The analogy with GG, which maybe could be suggested to them is that they should fully support non-gender conforming female children. If the child is not happy in an all-girls group then of course they can find an alternative, but if the child wants to stay (or if a mixed group would be unacceptable to the parents) then they will remain completely welcome.

I’m still pissed off by that daft Girlguiding uk official response to all this. This is iconic charity with a well defined public benefit to girls and young women made possible by teams of women volunteers giving up their time, whose management board is letting them down on really basic stuff.

It is never too late for senior people to hold up your hands and say you made a poor judgement call and will look at it again.

I’m sure GGUK management will have have come under intense pressure from TRAs to let boys in, but the answer to that is not to start kicking out girls who don’t conform to gender norms and to start letting in men and boys who don’t conform to gender norms (or are happy to SAY they don’t.... in order to access girls and young women ).

I’m sure GGUK management will have have come under intense pressure from TRAs to let boys in, but the answer to that is not to start kicking out girls who don’t conform to gender norms and to start letting in men and boys who don’t conform to gender norms

It's worse than that. Kicking out girls who are gender nonconforming, but including boys who are gender conforming.

A gender nonconforming boy would require the attributes associated with femininity, but remain a boy.

Acquiring feminine attributes and therefore saying they are a girl is absolutely conforming to the notion of gender.

As a previous poster said, an organisation which prides itself on allowing girls to think outside the gender box is going to be full of gender conforming girls, and gender reinforcing transgirls.

The dichotomy of this definition of gender as being an internal identity wholly manifested as external stereotypes, seems to have passed them by.

If a charity changes its aims and activities, is it meant to tell the charities commission?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
That's an interesting point, - I found this (was only looking quickly), but it may be something to pursue.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-we-approve-changes-to-charities

Email received today in response to the one I sent earlier - see above for email I sent:

With regards to your concerns, please be advised that we have explored this in depth in our previous reply and explained our inclusion and safeguarding practices. Girlguiding is part of a global movement that celebrates diversity and is committed to equality and respect for all our members and potential members. Our policies and supporting information provide a structure in which guiding can take place safely, consistently, and in accordance with the law. We are aware that this is a complex issue and we are constantly looking at ways to improve our practice. We are looking forward to the publication of updated guidance from the EHRC later this spring.

I understand from your emails that you do not agree with our practice around Equality and Diversity, and it is unlikely we will reach a conclusion on our differences of opinions. I therefore would like to signpost you to the information provided in our previous emails and thank you for the time and effort in engaging with us. Any further communication from you on this matter will not receive a response as we do not have any further information for you regarding our current policy. We’re proud of a being an inclusive organisation and accept that not everyone will agree with our vision.

Best wishes,

The Complaints Team

Girlguiding