Remember the Girlguides thread? We have our first success!

[AgnesBadenPowell]

A few weeks ago I posted here and in AIBU about Girlguiding UK and their transgender policy - I'm a leader. I'm also using the App so can't link to the threads but will come back later when I'm on a laptop.

I did not expect such a large response - over 800 posts in all. The support has been amazing. Via those threads, some people made contact with me and another leader and bravely agreed to speak out about their concerns.

We now have a story published in today's Sunday Times! This couldn't have happened without your support, input and encouragement. I'm grateful to everyone.

The only downside is the original article was heavily edited at the 11th hour to make way for other stories. Lots of other points and quotes were cut out. I made it clear to the reporter that I love Guiding and it was a tough decision to be publicly critical. I was also clear that GG's policy, however misguided, was written with good intentions. This was all lost in the editing.

The important thing is the message is out there now and GG will have to do something.

Do also check out the comments - lots of common sense and reasonableness. If we can demonstrate that there's lots of interest then we have more chance of a follow up so please leave comments if you can; I plan to stay in touch with the ST.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

I'm off to name change and then go to lunch but I'll be back later. Thanks again

if you do, will that make the papers too?

I won't keep quiet if they do kick me out, no

AgnesBadenPowell, my respect to you.

You have got the story out there into mainstream news. Where people can read and think for themselves, instead of "#nodebate"!

Excellent work, and thank you!

Thank you for doing this, Agnes. I read your article in the Times today. Well done for getting it out into the mainstream media.

That petition isn't going up as quickly as I'd like it to. Every mention in the media will make a difference.

Wow... a piece on a trans issue in a newspaper with (mostly) sensible comments.

Well done to you. Although short, I like the article style in that there's no criticism of you or over-mention of the F word (Feminist) that seems to get people's backs up. The comments under article are (mostly) heartening.

An article like this written directly and in clear simple terms, is exactly what is needed to bring the issue to mass-attention. It's readable, not heavy going, not overloaded with terms some won't understand.

Which means - you must have put your points across very clearly.

I think the not telling parents/other children aspect is extremely problematic. Just a reminder for those on Scotland that the equivalent guidelines for Scottish Schools are similar in terms of permitting mixed sex accomodation, toilets and sports. They will be launching soon in Scottish Schools.

Here is the text of the Guidelines:

www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/files/documents/Supporting_Transgender_Young_People_-_Digital_version.pdf

Today I have been trying to think of the things I did in the Guides that were girly. It was a long time ago, but we made fires, went camping, and did various badges. Nothing was feminine, we just did stuff.
Keep fighting the good fight

I am also very concerned about lying to parents.
Not telling them things is LYING BY OMMISSION

"It then goes on to say anyone can self ID as a woman and become a leader. I looked up the list of trustees. These are experienced people, have they just not engaged in this policy? After all of the kids abuse/exploitation stories from churches, kids groups, schools, you'd think they'd be vigilant. But no, they think that any man should be able to say "I'm a woman" and be put in a position of responsibility for young girls. How have massive alarm bells not been set off that this is ripe for predatory men to exploit?"

I don't know if they have different safeguarding principles for male leaders and female leaders in childrens orgs? I suspect they are the same (which they probably should be).

Unless it is the case that female leaders with girls are allowed to do things that male leaders with girls (in scouts for eg or other orgs) would not be.

The first case, if the safeguarding protocols for male and female leaders is the same, then I don't think this issue is really pertinent. And if adults want to abuse there are many other orgs where they will not stand out eg scouts.

If it's the second case and eg female leaders can sleep with girls while male ones cannot then agree there is an issue.

I would be more concerned with the young people rather than the leaders for whom I suspect there are lots of rules. You could have an adult man bunking in with a young teen girl, and the guidelines say that the adult man, if he says he is a girl, then he literally is a girl, and therefore there are no safeguarding issues... Um, no thanks. That is just obvious cobblers.

In light of other posts where it has come to light that a large number of women posting here have been placed on 'Terf' blocklists (and also recognising lots of people don't use twitter.
I think it is important that everyone is aware of the twitter response/concerns from Helen (who I understand is involved with Mermaids).

I suspect Helen is another mother who has transed her child and absolutely cannot be k down now because that would mean thinking about what they have done to their child?

Sometimes males need to be excluded from things, even males who belong to a protected category.

I think it's more important to consider the information (via twitter) that many concerned parents with vulnerable children , and young people who are transgender themselves are reading / hearing from someone who may (or not) represent the charity.

The words '5 year old' and 'trans' should NEVER be used in the same sentence. FFS.

There is a bigger picture and wider concerns than the wording of these particular tweets. I would encourage a calm response and that others have a more thorough look....

Very well done. I'm in awe of your courage

Anyone want to start a band called Norman and The Rebel Leaders?

It really doesn't matter what Helen says on Twitter. The GG are under an obligation to conform to equality law.

And not to place one protected characteristic over another.

It's not difficult. Transactivists are making it so by deciding that women can't talk about this and their objections are a hate crime.

If girls don't want a male bodied person in their space, equality law says their feelings must be taken into account.

Impact assessments have to be written.

Bullying women into capitulation just shows up an agenda.

continued...

I think it does matter... in so far as it has it promotes and flames the belief that there is a 'violent/hateful ant-trans' lobby.
The false narrative that women attending WPUK meetings are carrying baseball bats, 'doxxing children', burning books, calling people who are transgender 'parasites', encouraging suicide, threatening rape and want to eradicate people who are transgender has been circulated, absorbed and likely believed by many.

I must say I'm unimpressed with Mimmymum/Helen's comments about me on Twitter. Those are serious allegations but she's blocked me so I can neither see them or have right of reply.

As the parent of a Brownie I would be totally ok with a girl who identified as a boy attending the unit. I would feel the same about Guides. I wouldn't want to exclude such trans individuals from the unit. But I would worry that admitting a boy who identified as a girl would mean that girls from some backgrounds would be prevented from joining and would lose out.

So, I support you Agnes. Thank you for being brave enough to speak up.

Agnes she does that quite a lot. It shows her absolute security in her own position doesn't it... She unblocks me to either quote or reply to my tweets and then reblocks me so I can't reply. Fortunately someone else normally does so I can request a screenshot and it shows her up to be as petty as she is.

You've stuck your head above the parapet so will get some flack, unfortunately. People who are transing their own children get very defensive when we point out that we aren't completely on the same page as them (you're either totally with her, or totally against her, she doesn't understand nuance).

Well done for doing this though. You're very bold and brave to raise this to the masses.

I would worry that admitting a boy who identified as a girl would mean that girls from some backgrounds would be prevented from joining and would lose out.

Yes - my understanding is that is the main reason why single-sex (not single gender) GG is needed. Unlike Scouts, which is now open to both sexes. The 'trans child' has that as an option.

I sent a letter of complaint to the GG Association and this is the official response to all such queries: www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/our-statement-on-recent-coverage-about-our-equality-and-diversity-policy/