Remember the Girlguides thread? We have our first success!

[AgnesBadenPowell]

A few weeks ago I posted here and in AIBU about Girlguiding UK and their transgender policy - I'm a leader. I'm also using the App so can't link to the threads but will come back later when I'm on a laptop.

I did not expect such a large response - over 800 posts in all. The support has been amazing. Via those threads, some people made contact with me and another leader and bravely agreed to speak out about their concerns.

We now have a story published in today's Sunday Times! This couldn't have happened without your support, input and encouragement. I'm grateful to everyone.

The only downside is the original article was heavily edited at the 11th hour to make way for other stories. Lots of other points and quotes were cut out. I made it clear to the reporter that I love Guiding and it was a tough decision to be publicly critical. I was also clear that GG's policy, however misguided, was written with good intentions. This was all lost in the editing.

The important thing is the message is out there now and GG will have to do something.

Do also check out the comments - lots of common sense and reasonableness. If we can demonstrate that there's lots of interest then we have more chance of a follow up so please leave comments if you can; I plan to stay in touch with the ST.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

I'm off to name change and then go to lunch but I'll be back later. Thanks again

Well done OP! This is brilliant. And loving the comments on the article too. The majority of people see through this crap.

Surely guiding safeguarding policy has a whistle blowing clause? And you should be protected from disciplinary action under that?

Well done OP

Well done, Agnes. I saw this on Twitter this morning and my immediate thought was 'bet that's the MN guiders'!

Personally, I'm just as worried about the message we're sending girls as the safeguarding aspect. We're telling girls that anyone who feels like a girl IS a girl. And of course with that, you get 'well I don't feel like a girl... Maybe I'm not a girl'.

Exactly @MrsKCastle this is much more than a safeguarding issue. It's about labels and stereotypes and girls giving up their spaces to make way for males. It tells girls that their boundaries don't matter, put up or shut up.

I'm so bloody angry! GG can accommodate trans children if it wants to, but to do that successfully it can't ALL be all about the trans kid. ALL MY RAINBOWS ARE IMPORTANT TO ME! What they want and their feelings matter too

Well done Agnes!

I have a toddler, and was thinking the other day about her joining Brownies when she's old enough, and thought I'd love to become a leader. I adored it when I was little, and my mum was a Brown Owl for years.

Then I wondered about their trans policy. Looked it up, and my jaw hit the floor. It was so shocking to see in black and white a women's organisation chucking girls under a bus, seemingly without a thought.

I don't understand how the trustees could ever have approved it as a policy document. Everything is about the trans person, with no mention of the other girls having any purpose beyond accommodating, nor any acknowledgement that there is any potential conflict between the desire for a trans girl to join Brownies and the desire for girls to have a boy free, penis free zone. Never mind that Brownies is supposed to be about empowering girls to break free of gender constraints and do anything they want to. It is almost as if they haven't realised they're forcing a conservative misogynistic homophobic dogma on girls.

It then goes on to say anyone can self ID as a woman and become a leader. I looked up the list of trustees. These are experienced people, have they just not engaged in this policy? After all of the kids abuse/exploitation stories from churches, kids groups, schools, you'd think they'd be vigilant. But no, they think that any man should be able to say "I'm a woman" and be put in a position of responsibility for young girls. How have massive alarm bells not been set off that this is ripe for predatory men to exploit? Are they trying to get sued? Feels like such a derogation of duty - I would be feeling very uncomfortable and nervous if I was a trustee, as they have a long way to come back from this position if they want something sensible and workable.

At the end it says they worked with Mermaids. This explaining why it is such a brain dead position. In contrast I read the Scouting policy, who didn't work with Mermaids, which seemed significantly more intelligent and balanced towards the needs of girls and trans kids - still questions and not perfect, but much more thought through.

Net result. If things stay as they are my daughter won't be a Brownie and I won't volunteer. I want my daughter to be free from gender bullshit, sexism and misogyny. I won't send her to conservative organisations for that reason, and now the Brownies are in the same bucket.

That makes me so so sad.

Sorry - just realised I wrote a thesis! Much longer than I intended!

There's an interesting featured comment worth supporting....

Don't worry @Tootsweets23 I thought your post actually summed it up well! There is so much wrapped up in this issue.

What featured comment is that?

on the Sunday Times online article about guiding

*In recent weeks spotlight has been shone on The Labour Party, Swim England and now the Girl Guides.... the issue cuts across all political parties and many organisations, places and services.

A wider focus is required, not on the individuals who are transgender but on what is ,despite claims, a powerful TRA lobby. There are significant perhaps unintended implications of self-id and sex/gender legislation. These affect everyone and there is a desperate need for nuanced and respectful consideration and debate.*
Copied & pasted!

@Tootsweets23 That was an excellent post! Have you considered sending it on to GGs as well?

Oh yes @Nosetothesun I saw that one. Might cut and paste for my next article

Yes @Tootsweets23 do write to GGHQ. They need to know what they are doing to guides. All to please the trans lobby groups. What about the actual girls and leaders!

Thank you Agnes!

@TheMonstrousRegiment I had been meaning to write to them, so now I will.

The very thought of getting an email from the Girl Guides suggesting I'm a bigot for defending women, girls and lesbian rights, and the rights for effeminate boys to not be rejected as a problem needing surgery and drugs... well, just the idea of being told I'm the uncaring one makes me feel sick and is why I've put it off.

well, just the idea of being told I'm the uncaring one makes me feel sick and is why I've put it off.

And that’s what the TRAs are banking on. All those years of socialisation, training you to be ‘nice’. I’m guilty of feeling the same, but I’ve learnt through the wonderful women of Mumsnet, that being nice, is why we’re in this mess. I’ve even found that I’m taking less shut in RL. It’s actually very liberating, once you get into your stride.

Shit not shut*. Even my spellcheck is being ‘nice’. 😁

Personally, I'm just as worried about the message we're sending girls as the safeguarding aspect. We're telling girls that anyone who feels like a girl IS a girl. And of course with that, you get 'well I don't feel like a girl... Maybe I'm not a girl'.

This is what Stephanie Davis Arai of Transgendertrend encounters.

Boys identifying as girls, not only get accommodated. The literature sent into schools recommends cakes and celebration for 'coming out'.

The boy, dressed in feminine clothing, claiming he thinks like a girl, celebrated and suddenly with a raised status. The girls look at him, look at themselves and think if that's a girl, what am I? A boy?

It's going backwards.

@Datun has it spot on. There is so much at stake here. Not least the subjugation of ordinary girls. GG have made it clear - trans girls are more important. That's not my view and I won't endorse it - ALL KIDS IN MY UNIT ARE IMPORTANT AND ALL OF THEIR FEELINGS MATTER!

Sorry for shouting

Exactly. Not only what am I, but whatever I am, doesn't count.

This is really good news. Proper discussions need to happen to ensure that girls are protected - even if they don't think they need protecting!

Echoing the other posters a massive well done agnesbadenpowell

The discussions haven't happened yet - I'm forcing GG's hand. We need to keep up momentum - write to GGHQ, tell them where it's going wrong.

And I'm expecting to get kicked out for this. I'm doing it because I believe I'm doing the right thing. Once I've gone, we need other parents to keep up the pressure