What do you use the womens’ toilets for?

[FancyRibbon]

Inspired by recent posts on the Radio 4 thread.
I realised that the whole ‘Why do you even care who is pissing in the cubicle next to you?’ argument against single sex toilets underestimates how I think many women actually do use/need the ladies’.

It’s not just about the cubicle being private to you as an individual woman (though this is really important), it’s also about knowing there is a door behind which there is a women-only space that can be really important. Some of that is specifically about it NOT being a male space.

So eg what I use the women’s toilets for is:

• pissing, crapping, dealing with periods, POAS
• a place to cry especially at work when you don’t want anyone else to see
• a place to go and just sit and feel exhausted because your baby is not sleeping and you’re back at work

-as above washing and drying breastmilk leaks on clothes which involving standing about with some stuff off

• a place to sort out falling down tights and gappy shirts, -against adjusting/taking off clothes possibly while checking in a mirror
• somewhere to talk to other women privately knowing men won’t be around
• in bars and clubs, a place to get away from male hassle

I just don’t want to share women’s toilets with men. Self ID will be making that not my choice any more. I feel that I won’t be able to just avoid gender neutral toilets and look for a women’s any more, because women’s toilets won’t exist and campaigning for them will be hate speech.

I've had to come off it.

For those who don't have twitter it basically went

Man - Reproductive organs don't affect how people use bathrooms

Woman - Acutally women use bathrooms for x, y and z which are exclusive to them as a sex class

Man - that doesn't happen

Lots of women - yes it does

Man - a miscarriage is like having a shit. Why would you not be happy to do that with men about

Lots of women - and some men - what the fuck

Man - you all hate transwomen and think they are rapists you evil TEFS

That twitter thread made me cry. So sad.

We know that some people completely lack empathy. Imagine having a miscarriage in the men's with a bloke like that there to tell you how you are doing it all wrong.

Man - Reproductive organs don't affect how people use bathrooms

In my drunken youth I once attempted to piss in a urinal and I can thus confidently declare that yes they do!

(Suggestion - if you must attempt this do it while sober.)

Ahh Sexmatters I am so sorry

Hope you are ok

he and his vile uncomprehending attitude has proved the validity of the argument that female spaces need to remain exclusively female.

Indeed. What a fucking arse

A. most women would prefer that they remain sex segregated and B. there are men who fetishize the idea of being able to listen to women pissing. Those two elements alone would be enough to justify maintaining sex segregation, and there are lots more.

If the blokes keep this "well I don't see the problem" nonsense up maybe the next Man Friday activity should be to go into the men's loos and make disparaging comments about the size of their genitalia. From one man to another, as it were.

Thanks I'm ok catgirl it just throws into sharp relief how important all this is.

We can't allow boundary violators, and self-important empathy-lacking people to tell us we are 'wrong' for having boundaries because they can't see them or understand them, or because they draw their lines differently.

This is so important. It is basic and fundamental.

I had a hysterectomy last week and need to check my dressings and incisions in a mirror. I just generally want privacy for this.

I'd hate to have had a mixed sex bathroom or ward in hospital.

'Recovery' was a mixed unit, and that was a bit grim tbh because of the loss of privacy. We were all there for many hours too long because of a bed shortage. It's hard to talk about how your vagina's feeling next to male strangers, it just is.

I'm glad you're ok.

It is important. We have the right to boundaries.

This whole TRA agenda to me seems to be nothing to do with the rights of trans people but everything to do with the right to force women into things.

I know and like some trans people in my real life. They are nothing like the TRAs I encounter on twitter and in the media.

I use preferred pro nouns because it's polite and I am polite to people. But it remains my choice.

I don't mind transwomen in the ladies loos when they are quietly going about their business. It's not an issue. But I could challenge someone if I thought they were in there for nefarious purposes or it made me uncomfortable. It remains my choice.

I don't personally mind unisex changing rooms. But sometimes I want the choice of a female only changing room. It remains my choice.

When someone tells me they are going to force me to use certain words, or force their way into my space it becomes a very different issue indeed.

And for me, this whole agenda is not about improving life for trans people it is about removing choice and consent from women and forcing them to do things. And that is a very toxic agenda indeed.

I'm not sure if anyone else has get mentioned this one, but one thing I have done in a public toilet is: insert fertility medication vaginally/anally. I found infertility incredibly difficult to deal with, and both it and treatment for it made me feel very vulnerable. I would not have wanted a male anywhere near me while I was inserting those drugs.

Also: using the loo for sudden diarrhoea (IBS-type situation). Mortifying even in a female-only loo, it would have been exponentially worse if males had been there too.

Both of these things made me feel humiliated. To have that witnessed at all was bad enough. I don't know exactly why it would have been worse to have it witnessed by males, but I know damn well it would have been.

Men like him don’t believe the “trans women are women” rhetoric anyway. If he really thought they were women, he’d be as cruelly dismissive of their experiences as he is about ours.

Someone who feels mentally female somehow getting pointed towards the gents? Deep trauma, you women don’t understand.

Miscarriage? no big deal, just like taking a shit.

They KNOW these are men. That’s why they give a fuck about them.

Something else about hysterectomy btw - it's made me feel more woman, not less, iyswim, as it is entirely the experience of a biological woman, as were all the factors leading up to it.

Hi catgirl, isn't Twitter ghastly sometimes?

HI Liney - it is an awful place ...I should stay off it it's not good for my blood pressure ;0

That twitter thread

Horrific.

I left Twitter years ago, it was bad for my mental health! Like having a load of angry mosquitoes in my pocket.

That Sebastian guy, what a POS. At least no one seemed to be agreeing with him.

Handy to know what TRAs really think about women, on record, though.

I think a lot of normal people don't understand the hate that's there.

I don't think they do either

They think of the nice transexual person they know and think this is about them. It isn't . It's about a very nasty brand of Men's Rights Activism and very little to do with trans people, the vast majority of whom I imagine are horrified to be represented by this current, very vocal minority.

@catgirl1976 He is absolutely disgusting. I don't think he can possibly even be human, ick. Well done you for standing up!

Sorry should have mentioned that was in regards to the poo/miscarriage bloke.

I wish that man was unusual in his open disgust for female bodily stuff, but sadly he's not. It's remarkable how often men compare say breastfeeding to shitting and argue that if the latter isn't allowed in public then the former shouldn't be either.

Thanks secrets. I feel kind of bad for feeding the troll but the more people who see vile misogyny like that maybe the more people will understand the problem.

And I've been touched beyond belief by the female solidarity and stories of loss on the thread.

God he's awful.

I want to say:

Ok I'm a man. And I'm telling you, you don't need to wank and ejacululate unless you're committed to making a baby. It's stupid and pointless. I know. I'm a woman who's a man.

I also want to report him for potentially causing distress to others.

Before I had my hysterectomy a few years ago I had extremely heavy periods. Often I'd go to public loos and have to change towels/tampons and my hand would be covered in blood and I'd leave the cubicle to wash my hands in communal basins. Have sometimes had to hobble to basins with tights/trousers half down to get water to wash legs. With jumper wrapped round for modesty. I didn't want to share this experience with anyone much, but at least a woman would be empathetic.

I can't find the tweet about miscarriage, or I'd report it.

When he's an old man pissing everywhere he may just get it. When (if) he has a daughter, he may just get it.

I've linked to it above but here it is again

twitter.com/SPeitsch/status/977855856330100736