What do you use the womens’ toilets for?

[FancyRibbon]

Inspired by recent posts on the Radio 4 thread.
I realised that the whole ‘Why do you even care who is pissing in the cubicle next to you?’ argument against single sex toilets underestimates how I think many women actually do use/need the ladies’.

It’s not just about the cubicle being private to you as an individual woman (though this is really important), it’s also about knowing there is a door behind which there is a women-only space that can be really important. Some of that is specifically about it NOT being a male space.

So eg what I use the women’s toilets for is:

• pissing, crapping, dealing with periods, POAS
• a place to cry especially at work when you don’t want anyone else to see
• a place to go and just sit and feel exhausted because your baby is not sleeping and you’re back at work

-as above washing and drying breastmilk leaks on clothes which involving standing about with some stuff off

• a place to sort out falling down tights and gappy shirts, -against adjusting/taking off clothes possibly while checking in a mirror
• somewhere to talk to other women privately knowing men won’t be around
• in bars and clubs, a place to get away from male hassle

I just don’t want to share women’s toilets with men. Self ID will be making that not my choice any more. I feel that I won’t be able to just avoid gender neutral toilets and look for a women’s any more, because women’s toilets won’t exist and campaigning for them will be hate speech.

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts on this I have found this thread really helpful for helping to clarify my thinking.
I am going to write to my MP about how bad legal gender self-identification would be for women and will include a link to this thread with so many women’s experiences on.

The public toilets I used today had a poster of girl with a number to ring if you suspected child abuse.

The phone booth I walked past on the way out had a postcard of a sex worker dressed as a school girl.

Female-only spaces are essential.

Thorny that’s what we’re dealing with a nutshell isn’t it.

Those stickers inside the womens toilets can be really helpful for getting a number to a woman in a place or time that she is able to make an important or urgent call.

I have been in workplaces where they have stickers inside the ladies’ for workplace counselling or domestic abuse helplines, both of which can have highly gendered aspects. I think it really works having those stickers there.

So the weirdos who go around making crude comments to women (and most of us have met them) will now be able to carry on their verbal abuse through the cubicle wall. In a whisper if they so wish

A wee (but never a poo - save that for home) and make-up.

The weirdos on Twitter threatening women with rape, and saying suck my ladydick want to come in the women's loos with us.

And we're making a fuss about nothing. Riiiight.

Another thing which is horrible and runs through my mind- I remember as a student, they brought in mixed sex toilets and my gleeful male friends coming back into the SU bar saying they had just been listening to girls piss in the toilets next to them.

And this. We all know there is a contingent of men (often young men) who think it's absolutely hilarious to do this shit.

This is an issue of privacy, safety and dignity for women.

As teenagers/ early 20s we would hang out in the Ladies in nightclubs, just to get away from the constant hassle of men. Sometimes to plan an escape with a friend, or to ask someone to look out for you. We would ask other women for a tampon, if the machine had broken. Lend each other makeup. Mostly it was about escape. Having a breather in a place with other women. Older women too who would help if someone was upset. There were always women chatting, laughing. It felt safe.

More recently I use the Ladies for the obvious, but also for sorting out unexpected flooding. For changing clothes, if something has been soiled /bled on, or if tights have laddered .When my children were smaller I would sort out milk leaks. Often the breastfeeding area in shops is a sort of added bit of the Ladies loos too, so I would be feeding in there. I’ve changed my children’s clothes in there when they were small if they’d spilt something. I’ve also had to leave the door ajar when in with two small children and tiny cubicles. 
I did once have to wash my hair , in icy water with cheap hard soap, in a freezing park loo after a pigeon pooed on my head. That was very stressful, the loo was empty, the park was quiet, and I had my baby in a pushchair. My head was in the sink and I felt suddenly terrifyingly vulnerable. I would have stopped and walked home poo covered, had it not been a park for parents with children only , which was slightly reassuring.

Hang on. Does this mean our own dh/dp's can come into the Ladies too (to keep an eye on things) or would they need a self id card?

Yes Falmer your own DP/DH, his friends, their friends, all of your male relatives and literally any other male who feels like it can come the ladies, no questions asked. To ‘keep an eye on things’ or to do anything else in there. Certainly no card would be needed.

I've used the female toilets for all the same reasons many have mentioned. Dealing with miscarriages and the aftermath (it's not a one off major bleed and then it's done 😢) and generally coping with pregnancy, post childbirth cleaning needs and horrendous periods. I've often changed in the main area and not a cubicle as it's just too small. And as with many used it as a safe space to get away from men that are scaring and harassing me.
I do worry what women with hair and face coverings will do, it pushes them further out of public spaces and the ladies toilets are a space for them to engage with non covered women on an equal footing.

I had to share a ladies toilet in a deserted building (no ladies toilet in main building) with a trans colleague who had a habit of intruding in my personal space as dominance behaviour and would try and impose female stereotypical behaviour on me when no male colleagues were present. I've never experienced that physical dominance behaviour from non trans women however tall they were. The trying to impose female stereotypical behaviour on me I experienced as a child - it failed.
I tried to not use the toilet at work.

I'm a woman.
Please respect my choice of gender pronouns by not referring to me as cis.

I accept sharing a ladies with post op trans, whilst I might feel uncomfortable I accept post op mtf the men's toilets are not places they would want to use.

I respectfully ask them to behave as women do in these places and note that we support other women in practical ways and do not dominate or intimidate other women in these spaces

I do not want to share a ladies toilet with anyone who is self ided as a woman.

In the past I've supported trans bathroom rights, when I assumed trans meant postop trans 😳

I forgot about pregnancy sickness, and pregnancy needing to wee all the time, and kind women letting me go in first.
I’d read that twitter thread at the time. I was so that I didn’t comment.

I don't think that men's and women's toilets have the same roles in our western society. Being an actual toilet is just a small function of this role.

Dignity, privacy, safety, and even a social gathering space are all features that women want from public toilets. Of those, arguably the most important is security and that's the main issue to raised by the enforced sharing of the space with those who weren't born female.

But there may be some good reasons why men don't seem to attach much importance to these features. Dignity, privacy and accessible space is not something you'll find much of in men's public toilets. I should know, I've cleaned a few in my time.

There's a lot of wet mess and smell because the men have to stand up and splash their pee down the side of a common trough that runs into an open gutter of pee right by their feet. They have to get used to being shoulder to shoulder with other men while they pee. There may be some cubicles there, but far less than you'd expect to find in a woman's toilets.

I worked in a company where the women's toilets were clean, airy and spacious and had tables, vases of flowers, mirrors, chairs and windows. The men's toilets, however, were little more than a grim, windowless cell, devoid of any trappings other than a trough, a sink and a single cubicle. I presumed that the men didn't complain because it didn't bother them, but it could be because they never actually knew about what the women had going for them. Why would they?

And men's public toilets are often cleaned by female staff. The toilets carry a "warning" sign on the wall saying as much, but is usually displayed inside, rather that on the entrance. And if they don’t like the idea, well that's just too bad - they can go find another toilet.

We would be horrified and mortified if such conditions were imposed on us. Being told that a man may suddenly appear in the ladies toilet, several times every day without warning, to carry out maintenance or something would be quite unacceptable.

So, minimalist toilets appear to be no big deal for men. But maybe if we raise the profile of ladies loos, they might wake up and start demanding better ones for themselves!

Now you'll have to excuse me as I need to go outside and squat in the bushes.

The weirdos on Twitter threatening women with rape, and saying suck my ladydick want to come in the women's loos with us. And we're making a fuss about nothing. Riiiight.

AND gym changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards, women's prisons...

Why would we object to that?

I don’t unless I have no choice. I have severe issues when it comes to hygiene and public places. I spend the minimum time in there.

For pps talking about unisex loos as the 'solution' - I hate unisex toilets, the seat and floors are invariably covered in piss, or worse. Funnily enough, just like they are in the bloke's loos, according to DH.

Women might not be the font of all virtue, but we certainly appear to have cleaner toileting habits.

It’s a real issue to me how little physical space there is in ladies toilets. Both the common areas with sinks and within each cubicle. We have to fit around stuff in the cubicle- massive sanitary bins, coats and bags hung up on pegs etc. Our kids, pushchairs, our female friends sometimes come in too.
The proximity to each other relies on the shared understanding that it’s a space just for women.

Plus I’ve noticed that men use toilets differently to women- they often aren’t taught to close or lock the door when they piss. So in mixed tolieting we may be walking in on a man cock in his hand and pissing (because with door open it looks like an empty cubicle from the outside).
Or men may be leaving the cubicle door open because they ‘forgot’ to close or lock it and they want us to be forced to see whatever they are doing inside. I just don’t want to be so close to that.

My child is too young to go into the toilet cubicles herself. She needs holding on the loo seat etc. Often we can't both fit in the cubicle if it's tiny so I have to leave the cubicle door open whilst I hold her on the loo. My daughter wouldn't go in public if she thought men would be able to walk in and see her.

I'm 67 so long past menopause. The most embarrassing moment of my life was when travelling on a ship I had a menstrual accident. I was 16 and my best friend was travelling with me. We were having dinner and there were two men at the table. I got up and there was a huge red stain on the chair! I almost died. We hurried to the ladies' and my friend ran to me cabin to get a change of clothes. I still cringe when i think of it!

I travel a lot, often to countries in the Caribbean, SOuth America, India. I often change clothes at airports, in the ladies'. Especially on the Asian routes, you'll find ladies in abayas and hijab changing clothes.

No men, please!
Oh, and I am not cis. I am a woman.

Also, and this is the question I asked on the forum where I first outed myself: do gender neutral toilets have urinals? If yes, are we expected to walk past a row of men with their willies out?

If no, well, we will have not only longer queues, which will annoy men, but we will have toilet seats and floors sprinkled with urine, toilet seats left up, cubicle doors left open while men pee, because they really don't care about being seen peeing.

Up to now I don't know if these gender neutral toilets have urinals.

If I found a man in a ladies' toilet I'd indeed call the police. If they said they're a woman I'd say they showed me their penis. Yes, I would lie. It'd be my word against his. I bet he wouldn't like that.

Changed my name for this one post...
Men and women feel differently about privacy.
last year I had a hip operation and afterwards went to a Rehab clinic for a few weeks. At the time, the changing rooms for the swimming pool were being rebuilt/morernised, so there was for a week a communal changing room for both sexes.
The patients at the clinic were mostly over 60, as is usualy with people with orthopedic problems. They solved the problem themselves. When you walked into the changing room, there' would invariably be a few men in the process of changing into their trunks, often naked or half naked, happily undressing in full public, oblivious to the women walking through.

All the women turned right, to a private part of the changing room, unseen by the men, concealed by the lockers.
It worked fine; we all knew it was temporary, but it was quite clear that men don't mind women seeing them naked, women mind men seeing them naked.
I think this tallies with the experiences on this thread. We are different. Respect that.