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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pregnant trans men Guardian article

260 replies

Todayissunny · 22/03/2018 09:35

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/22/story-one-mans-pregnancy-trans-jason-barker

I just find this so confusing....
It tells me that we should just be able to live how we want to. We should absolutely not be defined by gender.

Or am I just really, really old fashioned that this is just absolutely crazy.

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UpstartCrow · 22/03/2018 09:44

Whats old fashioned about understanding how procreation works? Its been pretty fundamental to the species for some time now Smile

This is just another way of erasing women from public life. Dressing it up as progressive was a stroke of genius.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 22/03/2018 09:45

He sounds like a nice person tbh.

“I think my arc,” he says, “is going from somebody who thinks being an ordinary man is the best thing you can be to somebody who sees a different way of being. To a certain extent it’s about femininity,” he says, tapping the table as if he’s put his finger on it. “I’d pushed [it] away from a really young age, and I think it’s about bringing some of that back. And you realise how undervalued this work is … And it does make you think, ‘What was I pushing away? What was I scared of?’

“It’s about vulnerability, I think,” he says”

Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 22/03/2018 09:46

Happily the comments on the guardians fb page seem to see it for what it is. A pregnant female.

Todayissunny · 22/03/2018 09:49

Old fashioned because it reads like something out of science ficiton.... and I keep thinking about the 'gays werent accepted 20 years ago' debate - although for me personally that arguement absolutely doesnot fit in even the slightest way.

I think I get that women want to identify as men easier than the other way round. 99.999% of us have huge issues with our bodies and with expectations around gender and gender stereotyping. BUT taking hormones to try to deny your biology and then completely embrace it and enjoy it - I cant get my head around it.

Some found it masculinising. “They were more like a fat dude than they had ever felt before. As their body got bigger, they felt stronger.”... HOW, how the hell can pregnancy possibly in any sense be 'masculinising'... (which I don't even think is a real word).

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fascinated · 22/03/2018 09:49

This is honestly baffling to me. And so very sad that people are so unhappy with themselves that they feel the need to change their wonderful, natural bodies with hormones and so on... Is the baby harmed by this in any way? Could the T taken cause birth defects? That would be my concern. It seems selfish to me. I don’t really ever hear much about the baby in these stories. More about the ‘amazing’ and ‘brave’ parents. Hmmmm.

HeyRoly · 22/03/2018 09:51

Further proof that, whilst transwomen get in the news for winning "woman of the year" or some other high profile achievement, transmen only get in the news for getting pregnant.

And it IS confusing - to reject your sex, as it were, have a double mastectomy and then decide to go through pregnancy? I don't get it either.

Of course we should all be able to live how we want to. But I can't help but think it would be easier to just be masculine women/feminine men.

RhuBarbarella · 22/03/2018 09:52

I thought it was a lovely piece. It shows you cannot reduce people to easy categories. For some people it is not the easy case that they are defined by the sex they were born with. I admit the idea of a pregnant man is strange but stories like these make it sound less so. I think it is good to read these stories and to make them less strange.The vulnerability was touching.

Todayissunny · 22/03/2018 09:52

HeyRoly - EXACTLY - Of course we should all be able to live how we want to. But I can't help but think it would be easier to just be masculine women/feminine men.

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TerfsUp · 22/03/2018 09:53

Having a bilateral mastectomy does not make a man a woman.

And, jeez, The Guardian has not just drunk the trans Kool-Aid, they've bathed in it.

BlackBetha · 22/03/2018 09:55

I don't get it either. It's a woman having a baby, which is lovely, but... surely not all that unusual.

Actually, this is (as far as I can tell) a lesbian couple having a baby together, which is also lovely, especially as it wouldn't have been medically possible or socially accepted not long ago. But it seems like a weirdly regressive attempt to erase that by insisting that one of them has to be 'the man' in the relationship (and continuing to insist it's literally true even in the face of incontrovertible evidence like the 'man' being pregnant...)

Aristaeus76 · 22/03/2018 09:55

Hopefully she uses the women's changing rooms. Dressing up as a man doesn't make her a man.

InspiredByIntegrity · 22/03/2018 09:57

Comments section seems to have gone.

Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 22/03/2018 09:58

The comments on the Facebook page are still there ?

ALittleAubergine · 22/03/2018 10:14

I read the story and thought it's ok to reject gender roles even role names and pronouns to a certain extent don't really matter. Other than that it's a story of a pregnant woman. No other way about it.

Sunshineandgin · 22/03/2018 10:15

I somehow came away from that article feeling incredibly sorry for his wife. Unable to be the mother who gave birth and then to have to go through mastectomy for breast cancer. All the while with a “husband” who gets to do all the woman stuff despite being a “man”.

Elendon · 22/03/2018 10:17

I'm sure there will be trans women who will consider this article transphobic.

It's clearly nonsense. A woman who has a bi lateral mastectomy isn't a man and a woman who has had a radical hysterectomy isn't a man. And certainly a woman who has had both isn't a man.

Elendon · 22/03/2018 10:19

Lesbian couples have been having babies for centuries.

VulvaNotVagina · 22/03/2018 10:21

BUT taking hormones to try to deny your biology and then completely embrace it and enjoy it - I cant get my head around it.

I struggle with this too. Reading the article left me with the impression that this was a lesbian woman who hated her body and therefore wanted to live like a man, with "man" being reduced to someone who has a pint the day their baby is born and who wouldn't be seen dead in trousers with flowers on them.
It seemed like he was desperately trying to make a pregnancy fit into his idea of masculinity, when it just doesn't work. The sycophantic and repeated use of the phrase "pregnant man" by the journalist really annoyed me. It's odd how both trans men and trans women end up erasing biological women!

VulvaNotVagina · 22/03/2018 10:23

Comments section seems to have gone.
I don't think there ever was one on the Guardian page! Comments are on the fb page only afaik.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/03/2018 10:28

a lesbian couple having a baby together, which is also lovely, especially as it wouldn't have been medically possible or socially accepted not long ago. But it seems like a weirdly regressive attempt to erase that by insisting that one of them has to be 'the man'

This

I also wondered why the wife wasn't allowed 'an arc'

swivelchair · 22/03/2018 10:30

For some people it is not the easy case that they are defined by the sex they were born with

And yet, the newspaper article, is about a female being pregnant.

For someone 'not defined by the sex they were born', they sure seem to be trumpeting doing a major thing that that sex can do that the other doesn't..

TerfsUp · 22/03/2018 10:47

Comments section seems to have gone

The Guardian rarely opens comments on substantive issues as they often find that public opinion goes against the editorial slant. Cake recipes and restaurant reviews, on the other hand, almost always have comments open.

busyboysmum · 22/03/2018 10:51

“The following is a quote from detransitioner and blogger Max Robinson, with her permission:

I transitioned FtM (female to male) at 16, was on testosterone and had a double mastectomy by 17. I'm 20 now and back to understanding myself as a lesbian, like I was before I found out about transition and latched onto it as a way to “fix” body issues created by the challenges of growing up in a deeply misogynistic and lesbian-hating world.

I absolutely am traumatized by what happened to me, and I'm not the only one. I'm a part of support networks for women who stopped transition that have over 100 members, and that's just the individuals who have gone looking for others with this experience and found us.

Early in my transition, I went through menopause. This caused vaginal atrophy and drip incontinence that has persisted for years. I piss myself slowly all day now; it's really not cute or fun. I refused to acknowledge it was connected to the HRT-caused vaginal atrophy that immediately preceded its onset until months after going off testosterone. Yeah, I signed a paper saying I knew that could happen. I also thought this treatment was my only hope for coping with the intense feelings of alienation/disgust with my femaleness. I was wrong. Transition didn't help. It did harm, harm that I now have to learn how to live with on top of all the shit I thought transition would fix.

My double mastectomy was severely traumatizing. I paid a guy, a guy who does this every day for cash, to drug me to sleep and cut away healthy tissue. I did this because I believed it would heal all of the emotional issues I was blaming on my female body. It didn't work. Now I'm still all fucked up and I'm missing body parts, too.

There is no surgery that will undo what's been done… adding synthetic materials to resemble the tissue of mine that was incinerated years ago would not help me. It took 3 years of stuffing down every negative feeling about my mastectomy before I was ready to face that what happened did harm to me. I was off hormones for months before I admitted to myself that I deeply, deeply regretted this surgery. The best way I can think of describing the loss is like killing a family member who I blamed for being a burden on me, and then realizing years later that the blame I put on them was extremely and tragically misplaced. It was not their fault, but they're gone now anyway, because I wanted them gone. I have lost my breasts and I have lost the chance to reconcile with my breasts. It wouldn't be easy, but it would be work worth doing. Now the work before me instead is reconciling with what I've done and with the chest I have now—flat, scarred, asymmetrical, and nerve-damaged. (Robinson, 2016)”

fascinated · 22/03/2018 11:04

Moving testimony

No wonder they want it suppressed

jeepsinbeepsfoxonbox · 22/03/2018 11:04

Some found it masculinising. “They were more like a fat dude than they had ever felt before. As their body got bigger, they felt stronger.”... HOW, how the hell can pregnancy possibly in any sense be 'masculinising'... (which I don't even think is a real word).

I personally (despite hating nearly every moment of pregnancy) found the idea that my body could produce and nurture another life, made me feel a respect and an awarenesses of the strength and power of my body that I had not had before. I don't know that this is the case for these transmen, but I imagine that if I bought into gender idealogy, I could interpret these feelings of strength and power as signs of masculinity. Because power and strength according to gender = masculine.