Pregnant trans men Guardian article

[Todayissunny]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/22/story-one-mans-pregnancy-trans-jason-barker

I just find this so confusing....
It tells me that we should just be able to live how we want to. We should absolutely not be defined by gender.

Or am I just really, really old fashioned that this is just absolutely crazy.

@RatRolyPoly www.facebook.com/bbctwo/videos/10155359731070659/

Babies are treated differently depending on whether people think they're boys or girls. I doubt the babies are colluding

Sorry, participation, not collusion. Don't want to misquote

Nope. I’ve tried and I just can’t see a problem with this. They sound like a lovely family and it sounds like an interesting film.

I'd be so much happier RatRolyPoly if people talked about identifying with instead of as because that is what to me is what you are describing. There are a set of socially prescribed behaviours for men and for women, some individuals identify more with the behaviours prescribed for the other group than those they are supposed to perform and so they wish they were a part of that group. This seems perfectly understandable and if they stopped there I doubt anyone would object. It's the 'I feel, therefore I am' step that's the problem.

I don't blame the filmmaker for this sycophantic article, I blame the Guardian writer. Reading Jason's thoughts I hear a very common female experience so I empathise with it. Many women reconcile with their bodies during pregnancy. It's one of the reasons why the current trans affirming narrative is so problematic, all those very young women prescribed blockers and hormones so they will never get the chance to experience the strengths of their body and perhaps come to terms with being female but instead exist as facsimiles of men. It feels like such a con.

Although I too can't help but feel bullshit on the clothing woes. During most of pregnancy this individual was taken for a fat bloke. My dh had a significant beer belly for a while, when he stuck it out he looked very pregnant. Buying clothes for him was not an issue so I suspect Jason could have bought large mens clothes without issue until really quite late in pregnancy. I wonder if this part of the story was more to do with possibly difficult feelings about pregnancy and femininity vs masculinity which would also tie into the confusion about power they describe?

I wanted to ask a question about transmen and pregnancy.

When we are told that we mustn't talk about our female body parts and our periods because it is triggering to transmen and they hate their breasts and periods etc why do some of them then go on to do something they can only do because they were born female? The one thing that will point you out to the rest of the world as being a woman? Because men can't have babies. And if they really really wanted to be a man they wouldn't be getting pregnant would they?

The story about Max was tragic and something that could have happened to me had I been a teenager now. I totally hated puberty and wished I could get rid of my breasts (and periods) right up till I decided I wanted kids. I still don't like them.

Or am I just really, really old fashioned that this is just absolutely crazy.

No,just really really sensible and based in reality.

Olennas I think largely we don't disagree; I'm not saying gender isn't a social construct, I'm saying it's a dichotomy.

It is both the external constructs and the internal wilfulness or agency of individuals within groups to display them.

Some people on MN will declare that gender is a social construct as a means of denying that it can be anything at all within a person. That cannot be the case in my opinion, because otherwise it can not have been constructed.

So then is just the question of what is that internal element of gender that makes the "them" feel like "them" as opposed to feeling like "us"? But to say it isn't there at all just doesn't add up.

Stillscreaming

Women as a class are oppressed and held in low regard due to their biology. That usually means they are given the rough deal, because men are stronger and more able to be the oppressor class. Biological differences such as more testosterone, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, taller frames give men the power - by using violence / sexual violence or threat or peceived threat of it.

If it's gender that makes one a "woman" and women, as a class, worldwide are subservient, housework-focussed, natural carers etc, where the fuck are all the transwomen wanting to validate themselves as women by caring for elderly relatives?

Babies are treated differently depending on whether people think they're boys or girls

CapnHaddock in what way do you think that relates to gender expectations on that baby's behaviour? It simply doesn't.

Norbert I got the impression form the article that it was a last resort sort of thing because Tracey couldn’t conceive and the couple desperately wanted a child. Both sexes can be desperate for a child and many couples would move heaven and earth to achieve this.

Why can't it be constructed if people think they feel it internally? No one has a innate sense of gender otherwise men and women would be the same wherever they were in every society. Patently untrue. Further, the proliferation of trans identities in the last few years clearly points to social contagion. No one's anorexic anymore - they're trans instead.

When we are told that we mustn't talk about our female body parts and our periods because it is triggering to transmen and they hate their breasts and periods etc why do some of them then go on to do something they can only do because they were born female?

I don't doubt for a second that some idiot on Twitter has said that. I think that it would be entirely reasonable to tell that idiot what you think of that idea, I don't think it's reasonable to blame ever trans person for such stupidity.

When I was a kid I was a bit of a tomboy as it was called then, I played football, cricket, wore jeans, liked carpentry, helped dad with jobs around the house. But I have never felt anything but female. Am I stereotypical for a female? I don`t know, but I have never wanted to be a man.

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Women as a class are oppressed and held in low regard due to their biology. That usually means they are given the rough deal, because men are stronger and more able to be the oppressor class. Biological differences such as more testosterone, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, taller frames give men the power - by using violence / sexual violence or threat or peceived threat of it.

We don't know why women are opressed and held in low regard, we can't prove that it's because of our biology. We can all have theories but hold them up as unchallengeable fact, stops us learning.

I wrote extensively in the trans and lesbian thread about men using violence to oppress women, I even included a joke about Buffy the Vampire Slayer (it didn't go down well), have a look. I'm happy to discuss it with you.

Why can't it be constructed if people think they feel it internally? No one has a innate sense of gender otherwise men and women would be the same wherever they were in every society.

You're not following me Capn, or perhaps I'm not following you? Am I right in thinking you meant to say "if people DON'T think they feel it internally?"

Assuming you DID, how do you think gender constructs were constructed?

I'll give an example: say a prominent feminist is in the habit of wearing a purple scarf. She's pictured a lot in this scarf along with tales of heroic feminism. People start to associate the sight of a purple scarf with feminism. Feminists start donning purple scarves to identify themselves, then people start asking those claiming to be feminists where their purple scarves are!

This could not have happened without agency on the part of the individuals comprising the group known as "feminists". They couldn't all spontaneously have started wearing purple scarves. They weren't instructed to wear scarves to identify themselves. It was a voluntary evolution of an expected dress code that came about through feedback - a feedback loop of what those around you in the group are doing, and whether or not you want to be perceived to be within that group.

Obviously no example's perfect (and I just made that one up, so it may be less perfect than most!), but I hope that helps clarify.

I missed this bit...

where the fuck are all the transwomen wanting to validate themselves as women by caring for elderly relatives?

Are women validating themselves with the shit work? Is shit work what women choose? I cared for my dad when he couldn't care for himself anymore because of his cancer, it didn't make me feel very womenly, it was bloody depressing. My sister didn't care for him, it didn't make her any more or less womanly either.

We don't know why women are opressed and held in low regard, we can't prove that it's because of our biology.

History teaches if we are willing to learn. Applying the scientific method to the question we get repeatable results.
I have no idea what "we" you are speaking for unless perhaps you have a mouse in your pocket.

Even if gender is innate, gender expression is cultural.

No one has a innate sense of gender otherwise men and women would be the same wherever they were in every society.

Oh, I should have replied to this separately. That "innate sense of gender" is surely just used as a byword for whatever it is that individuals feels binds them to one sex group or the other; so driving them to signal their allegiance to it.

Just as an additional, we don't all signal our allegiance to all the groups we legitimately belong to - just to be confusing! There are so many competing groupings in society, and so many reasons why it may or may not help or advance us to signal belonging to any particular group, that's why not all girls are gender-conforming, and that's before you even account for things like personal preference!

Further, the proliferation of trans identities in the last few years clearly points to social contagion. No one's anorexic anymore - they're trans instead.

Sadly, the anorexics are still very much with us.

The social contagion thing is interesting, we do have loads more kids claiming to be trans than we every had before but we've also got loads more people claiming to be depressed than we ever had before. Depression used to be something that only afflicted the middle and upper classes, working class women weren't allowed depression.

Do you think that there was really no depression among working class women or do you think it was just ignored and they were expected to get on with it?

Left handedness also shot up at the end of the last century, it went from almost nonexistent to being something claimed by 12% of males. Do you think that they are faking it or that they are just allowed to use the hand they would most naturally use?

History teaches if we are willing to learn.

It really doesn't, social scientists give us some theories, that's all.

Even if gender is innate, gender expression is cultural.

Some aspect of it are, I was in Korea last year and the gender expression/performance is so much more pronounced that's it is in Europe but the common aspects are very hard to devide up between innate and cultural.

Their baby girls walk and talk earlier too.

I was reading a thread earlier on the trans agenda being promoted in schools and now I read Max’s dreadful testimony upthread. It’s really frightening what young people are having pushed on them and being lauded for. Where is the voice of detransitioned young people in all this?

@Chattylion

What happens to kids in the UK presenting to their GPs with gender identity issues, is that they are referred to a gender identity clinic. Those clinics have a two year waiting list. Then they receive a full assessment by a team including the following:

Clinical psychologists

Counselling psychologists

Systemic and family psychotherapists

Child and adolescent psychotherapists

Social workers

Child and adolescent psychiatrists

Paediatric endocrinologists (medical doctors for children and young people who are experts in the hormonal and physical changes associated with growing up)

Clinical nurse specialists (nurses with further training in endocrinology or a related area)

Under a certain age, I think it's about 10 years, 80% receive no medical treatment, they go away having had some nice chats about how they feel and understanding their feelings towards their bodies better than they did.

Some do have treatment, no one under 16 is given cross sex hormonal treatment and no one under 18 is given surgery.

Jason's treatment, as an adult, took about 5 years.