I am about to self-ID as a man - the update!

[YesItsADebate]

I have received a written response from the swimming pool that I originally approached as a self-ID man (original thread here), dated last Friday.

Dear […]
We have fully considered your request, taking into account the legal obligations to those who are stating that they are transsexual and our local and national rules and duties to consider your request to join our men only swimming group.

Firstly, as an organisation we do not yet have specific policies in place and are relying on national equality legislation and considered legal challenges. However we will now be looking to put in place fully thought out policies in relation to transsexuals and our leisure facilities, including swimming. We remain committed to the principles of equal opportunities for our customers and will consider all requests relating to transgender on a case by case basis, and in doing so balancing the needs of a particular customer against the reasonable expectations and needs of all other customers.

In relation to your specific request to join our men only swimming session, we feel we are within our rights at this time to turn down your request. We have discussed your own needs and position as to your gender recognition and have considered the object behind single-sex sessions. Our conclusion is that, as present, it would not be appropriate for you to join the men only swimming sessions. However, as per other national swimming association/leisure facilities we would be more than happy to have a transgender only swimming session if there was found to be a local need for such a session.

In relation to access to appropriate toilets, again this will need to be considered on a case by case basis. However, at this time with no specific policy in place we feel that the best option available would be to use the gender neutral toilet ie the accessible toilets.

We would ask that you respect our stated policy on swimming attire, which is that swimmers must wear clothing that is appropriate and modest.

Your Sincerely

[…]
Chief Executive

I would love to know what their objective definition of 'modest' is, but I hope that doesn't become the main point of discussion. I consider this to be a full-on, unmitigated win for women's rights, safety, privacy and dignity.

I will be responding to thank them, writing to my MP to give him the update and asking him to support them and to support #ManFriday in approaching Swim England to discuss.

Excellent work

I am extremely proud of you OP and I don't even know you!

You've got some people thinking, and that's truly half the battle.

Good work

Well done! This is excellent news. This is a win because as far as I know it's the first time some of this bullshit trans guidance has been withdrawn for a rethink (it does appear to have been removed from Swim England's website).

'Case by case' is in line with the EA, even for the strictest exceptions (DV shelters, rape crisis etc.). We couldn't realistically expect more at this stage and the swimming pool would have been wide open for legal challenge if they'd gone further than that.

Case by case of course needs testing from the TIM direction too.

I'd be in favour of campaigning for changes to the EA so that in some circumstances we don't need to do case by case, we can just say 'this is for females only' and have that respected. This is a different battle from simply expecting a leisure centre to uphold and use the law as it currently stands.

I don't know if this is a victory either? They have essentially put the preference and comfort of men over and above the OP in this instance.

They have excluded her from the men's session.

It does seem as though they have given it more thought, but this case by case basis could just mean it will only ever apply to the OP.

And they clearly appeared to accept the previous advice given by Swim England without question. And yet now they have considered it and are saying "no". No, I'm not sure about this at all.

The Swim England advice has been taken down.

Result!

Yes, the link isn't there any more (oops error 404 etc) try to google it

Also turfymcturfface feed on twitter. It's super news.

Amazing how it’s suddenly not ok when it looks like it might affect a MAN.

I bet you all an Easter Egg that this response is code for "we will accept EVERY single case of a self ID except yours, and thanks for flagging up that you were an activist so we could justify excluding you with evidence"

Case by case = self ID.

The opposite of self ID is the requirement of hard evidence of sex.
The only hard evidence of sex is a birth certificate.
(which also includes the legal fiction of those with a GRC)

This response is telling us "trust us, let us decide"

In fact, this can be used against women
As in, where there is evidence of false declaration, we won't validate (known activist stunts like #manfriday)
EVERY other case is deemed valid
Look, the system works, self ID is great, we're really good at weeding out people like Amy, everyone else is valid etc.

The ONLY reassuring response is "we will invoke the exemption clause which grants us the legal right to a same SEX space"
They have decided against this.

Anything else IS SELF ID.

I know what you mean but it makes it less likely, and Swim England taking down the guidance makes it even less less less likely.

The guidance will go back up, revised, and I bet it isn't in favour of females...

That's one to watch. Do you think so? My goodness, how on earth could they justify that.

I think they'd find it very hard to justify after this. If nothing else it MAY have made swim england realise how difficult this is going to be to police...

This is great OP. Thank you for your time and effort on this.

The guidance will go back up, revised, and I bet it isn't in favour of females...

I'm beginning to think this is the case.

The only people that they would have consulted is a trans lobby group.

And I think they will double down.

But then again, so will we.
This isn't going to be a quick fix.

Do you think it will? They have their equality and diversity policy, which states the commitment to the principles of inclusion and acting under the law. It's not like there's a gap to be filled. It would be obviously and deliberately.

We should keep blue hair colour spray / blue lipstick for manFriday. Anyone identifying as genderfluid would never be questioned with those.

The sex based exemption is there for them to apply IF THEY WISH

Anything else IS self ID.
Don't be fooled.

I think the next campaign should be #WomenAREtranswomen #nodebate

where women identify as transwomen and access every space, service, group as such. Where we answer stonewall surveys AS transwomen, where we consult with the government AS transwomen.

And we do it in large numbers.

Unless anyone cares to apply some kind of criteria that could stop us from doing this?