I am about to self-ID as a man - the update!

[YesItsADebate]

I have received a written response from the swimming pool that I originally approached as a self-ID man (original thread here), dated last Friday.

Dear […]
We have fully considered your request, taking into account the legal obligations to those who are stating that they are transsexual and our local and national rules and duties to consider your request to join our men only swimming group.

Firstly, as an organisation we do not yet have specific policies in place and are relying on national equality legislation and considered legal challenges. However we will now be looking to put in place fully thought out policies in relation to transsexuals and our leisure facilities, including swimming. We remain committed to the principles of equal opportunities for our customers and will consider all requests relating to transgender on a case by case basis, and in doing so balancing the needs of a particular customer against the reasonable expectations and needs of all other customers.

In relation to your specific request to join our men only swimming session, we feel we are within our rights at this time to turn down your request. We have discussed your own needs and position as to your gender recognition and have considered the object behind single-sex sessions. Our conclusion is that, as present, it would not be appropriate for you to join the men only swimming sessions. However, as per other national swimming association/leisure facilities we would be more than happy to have a transgender only swimming session if there was found to be a local need for such a session.

In relation to access to appropriate toilets, again this will need to be considered on a case by case basis. However, at this time with no specific policy in place we feel that the best option available would be to use the gender neutral toilet ie the accessible toilets.

We would ask that you respect our stated policy on swimming attire, which is that swimmers must wear clothing that is appropriate and modest.

Your Sincerely

[…]
Chief Executive

I would love to know what their objective definition of 'modest' is, but I hope that doesn't become the main point of discussion. I consider this to be a full-on, unmitigated win for women's rights, safety, privacy and dignity.

I will be responding to thank them, writing to my MP to give him the update and asking him to support them and to support #ManFriday in approaching Swim England to discuss.

I want to know what the verdict would have been if it was a man that id's as a woman wanting to use the women only sessions.

In my area those sessions are only really used by muslims so I'd like to see what their reaction would be too.

OP, I'm not sure I'd be sending them an email of thanks before getting someone to check how they'd respond to a bloke IDing as a woman making a parallel request.

when does the campaign for women prisoners start then? all this changing room stuff must be exciting, i get that.

but, who is protesting for the protection one of the most mentioned but not actually discussed demographic: women in prison? who already campaigns for them? who already cares enough to be involved, and will now also be a voice for the women who you believe will be threatened by Self ID?

it’s all hypothetical cocks in leisure centres and angry ballbags in the bogs. what larks.

Maybe you just need to start screaming homophobia, who up a twitter storm, threaten the staff and just be a loud, scary pain in the backside to get your own way? It seems to work.

Excellent, well done

Thank you for this update. Interesting response and I like your reply to it.

Good luck!

Ex-wife, this is a small part of the whole self Id business.
Women's estate have been at or close to the top of each discussion on here.
I personally don't know any women or men in prison and its huge ask to find a way of doing this but in a prison. Don't suppose any of us want to commit a crime just to see if we can subvert the ststem, plus as mumsnet is a whole lot of women and few men, it would mean id ing as a man so as to go in the male estate. Pretty dangerous

Yes, you did good

My previous comment was overly dismissive. I actually think this is a fantastic protest and very brave. Well done OP!

With Beetle I'm afraid...

This sounds really positive.
Perhaps you could write back with some language that might guide them in the right direction
e.g. I am really pleased to hear that you will be conducting proper impact assessments prior to developing your policies and that you will take into account both the protected characteristics of gender reassignment and sex.
I am pleased that you appreciate that not just the safety but also the dignity and privacy of everyone is important and plans need to be put in to place to afford everybody with these rights.

You could also ask them to send you copies of how they conducted the impact assessment and the findings from them once they are completed.

but, who is protesting for the protection one of the most mentioned but not actually discussed demographic: women in prison? who already campaigns for them? who already cares enough to be involved, and will now also be a voice for the women who you believe will be threatened by Self ID?

Sounds like this is quite an important issue for you @exWifebeginsat40. What are you doing about it? What ideas do you have?

Can you include a link to the petition in your response?

Prison already do it on a case by case basis I think.

exwife I’m sure if you try hard enough you can see that a “win” or “loss” affecting women’s right regarding single sex spaces will also impact on the rights of women in prison to single sex spaces.

Well done to you - that's a real achievement. Thank you!

Am I the only one who thinks this is actually a BAD outcome?

Having a GRC gives the person automatic transfer to the prison of their preferred gender.

I have no idea how this would work for a transman. Automatic transfer to a male prison?

Would they get a choice? If so, why?

If transmen are men and transwomen are women.

Datun I thought trans prisoners could go to the prison of their choice, but that that might be overruled on a case by case basis? I thought I read that on here?

Why is it bad Barracker?

I’m not sure this is a win. Although it does give you leverage to contest when self-IDing transwomen are enabled access to previously female-only spaces.

Great outcome Amy!
If your MP is the same as mine (I suspect she might be if you are in SE London) then I wish you luck. I already wrote to her expressing concerns about self id and protection for women and received a very disappointing response.

thank you SO MUCH for doing this OP. Massive heart eyes for you and everybody sticking their heads above the parapet for us.

What would an ideal "win" be though?

To suggest a fully transitioned person still sticks to their birth -sex group is as ludicrous as self-ID people going in their preferred gender group.

A middle ground needs to be reached, and this reply is a middle ground solution.