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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I am about to self-ID as a man - the update!

144 replies

YesItsADebate · 20/03/2018 10:57

I have received a written response from the swimming pool that I originally approached as a self-ID man (original thread here), dated last Friday.

Dear […]
We have fully considered your request, taking into account the legal obligations to those who are stating that they are transsexual and our local and national rules and duties to consider your request to join our men only swimming group.

Firstly, as an organisation we do not yet have specific policies in place and are relying on national equality legislation and considered legal challenges. However we will now be looking to put in place fully thought out policies in relation to transsexuals and our leisure facilities, including swimming. We remain committed to the principles of equal opportunities for our customers and will consider all requests relating to transgender on a case by case basis, and in doing so balancing the needs of a particular customer against the reasonable expectations and needs of all other customers.

In relation to your specific request to join our men only swimming session, we feel we are within our rights at this time to turn down your request. We have discussed your own needs and position as to your gender recognition and have considered the object behind single-sex sessions. Our conclusion is that, as present, it would not be appropriate for you to join the men only swimming sessions. However, as per other national swimming association/leisure facilities we would be more than happy to have a transgender only swimming session if there was found to be a local need for such a session.

In relation to access to appropriate toilets, again this will need to be considered on a case by case basis. However, at this time with no specific policy in place we feel that the best option available would be to use the gender neutral toilet ie the accessible toilets.

We would ask that you respect our stated policy on swimming attire, which is that swimmers must wear clothing that is appropriate and modest.

Your Sincerely

[…]
Chief Executive

I would love to know what their objective definition of 'modest' is, but I hope that doesn't become the main point of discussion. I consider this to be a full-on, unmitigated win for women's rights, safety, privacy and dignity.

I will be responding to thank them, writing to my MP to give him the update and asking him to support them and to support #ManFriday in approaching Swim England to discuss.

OP posts:
swivelchair · 20/03/2018 11:19

That is a good response (although I agree about 'case by case') - it shows they are aware of the law regarding sex segregation - as they bloody well should be of course - you told them about it, but it's good that after being led to that water, they actually drunk.

Now we just have to keep an eye on that national policy to keep them honest.

cinnamonwoman · 20/03/2018 11:22

Thank you so much for bravely highlighting the glaringly obvious loopholes in their ill thought out guidelines.
You’ve done us proud Smile

LaundryLaundryMoreFingLaundry · 20/03/2018 11:25

Thank you, thank you! to all the #manfriday MNers who are doing this. The letter sounds encouraging but I agree we do need a pushy, entitled TIM to test the case-by-case treatment the other way around. Are there any #womanfriday lurkers who would take it on?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/03/2018 11:27

Oh brilliant. Well done! You are receiving amazing!

Original poster
YesItsADebate · 20/03/2018 11:32

senua there's a #ManFriday working group busy re-writing the Swim England guide so that we can approach them with an alternative.

OP posts:
Original poster
YesItsADebate · 20/03/2018 11:33

This is the response I've emailed to the Chief Exec:

Dear [...],

I have received your comprehensive written response to my enquiry into self-identified transgender access to [...] single-sex spaces. I appreciate you taking the time to make a full and considered response. Your team has acted with the utmost professionalism and sensitivity throughout my interactions with them on this matter; please do pass on my thanks.

Thankyou for considering the needs of all your service users in the face of political pressure and a badly thought-out guide from Swim England. Given the media furore and the attacks by activists on women and organisations seeking to uphold single-sex provisions that protect women’s safety, dignity and access to services, I will shortly be writing to [...] MP and [...] MP to make them aware of your stance and asking that they support you.

Best regards,

[...]

OP posts:
Tartyflette · 20/03/2018 11:36

Well done, but I have to wonder -- what if you now make the same request as a male identifying as a woman and wishing to use the women's facilities..... ?

SuitedandBooted · 20/03/2018 11:36

Awesome, OP Grin

By the way, has the Transgender Advice document been pulled from the Swim England site? I'm sure it was on this page - might need my glasses, though!
www.swimming.org/swimengland/guide-engaging-trans-people-swimming/

It was a PDF called Guide to Engaging Trans People In Swimming -
I have it down loaded.

I'v just had a skim through their Transgender policies again - and it seems that they don't really have the right to compel anyone to use a particular changing room or loo, if they don't want to;

3) If your facility is not able to cater for this and you have a more traditional gender assigned toilet/shower allocation, then you should enable trans people to use the facilities which they feel to be most appropriate. As outlined in the Equality Act section earlier in this toolkit, you have a responsibility to support somebody who is undergoing or who has undergone a gender transition as much as possible.
4. It may be appropriate to enable trans swimmers to use disabled changing facilities. If so, this should be an offer that is made on an individual basis and a trans person should never be required to use disabled changing facilities

Tartyflette · 20/03/2018 11:37

sorry cross post ( in effect)

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 20/03/2018 11:40

Great precedent been established!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/03/2018 11:41

We remain committed to the principles of equal opportunities for our customers and will consider all requests relating to transgender on a case by case basis, and in doing so balancing the needs of a particular customer against the reasonable expectations and needs of all other customers

If you have a cock and want to swim with the ladees then you have equal opportunities and needs. If you have a cunt and boobies and want to swim with penis beholders ... nah.

SmurfOrTerf · 20/03/2018 11:46

I think your response to their letter is excellent too.

SlowlyShrinking · 20/03/2018 11:49

Well done op! I also wonder whether a TIM would be received differently though? Especially as they have said ‘case by case basis’, but hopefully a precedent has now been set. At least it will have made them think about the full implications of ending single sex swimming sessions.

olderthanyouthink · 20/03/2018 11:49

@SuitedandBooted I think this is the guide but you're right it has been pulled (this is from a cache) link

misscockerspaniel · 20/03/2018 11:50

Do you think it was written before or after your photo and story appeared in the press? Interesting that they suggest that transpeople use the disabled loos.

Tralalee · 20/03/2018 11:50

Following with interest. Im another who thinks it may have been different the other way around

UpstartCrow · 20/03/2018 11:54

Excellent result, I'm so relieved, our local pool has loads of women only sessions.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 20/03/2018 11:54

The 'case by case' part of their letter worries me. It means they can say no to any woman wanting to swim in male only sessions and yes to any man wanting to access women only sessions. Case by case is a cop out. Either self ID applies or it doesn't.

Ohforfoxsakereturns · 20/03/2018 11:58

They’ve set the precedent now, so if it were a MtF it stands.

It’s the right response. This solution has been in place for everyone forever, it’s just never needed to be spelt out before. Consideration and respect is all that is needed.

I applaud you all. Bloody well done.

Fekko · 20/03/2018 12:02

So it's justwomen who need re-education? Interesting.

Can we ask a stunt male to try the opposite and see what happens? Anyone married to/friend of Giant Haystacks?

VoleClock · 20/03/2018 12:03

Well done, OP. I am in awe of the efforts you and sweary have been making on this issue.
Like some others, I am a bit concerned at what 'case by case' basis might lead to. Might they be thinking that if someone has fully transitioned (ie old money transsexual) or at least made significant efforts to pass, they might be allowed into the session of their 'chosen gender'? But of course, that might create a lot of embarrassment all round.

SuitedandBooted · 20/03/2018 12:03

It was written quite some time ago. I am a swim team manager, and I was WTF about it!

Pratchet · 20/03/2018 12:05

Great response, you pre-empted the situation, definitely a TIM would be allowed - but now you've set the precedent, they can't! Well done.

Datun · 20/03/2018 12:07

A case by case basis is okay though. In as much as that's what the equality act is for. You can't just say no.

You have to balance the needs of everyone with a protected characteristic and make sure exclusion is a fair outcome.

Up until now people have assumed that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment somehow trumps that of sex. It doesn't.

It's the wording 'a proportionate means to legitimate aim'. Whilst women are being forced to shut up, there is no 'legitimate aim', because no women are complaining.

Whereas if enough women say yes, actually this is making me feel intimidated and uncomfortable, then the 'aim' will be to stop that.

Exclusion can be justified.

QuizteamBleakley · 20/03/2018 12:07

You and @Sweary are doing incredible stuff. I want to get onvolved, too. Where can I start?