Update on interactions with the Green Party on self-id

[MsMcWoodle]

Update on my interactions with the Green Party for anyone who is interested.
Letter to Baroness Jenny Jones – reply from her office saying that she shared my concerns.
Letter to GP head office. I will share it here so that you can fully understand the response – then I’ll have to name change… This is after a bit of back-and-forth where they were trying to palm me off. My letter -

‘This is not a minor policy disagreement. This is fundamental. Please could I have an answer to my questions?

^1. I was abused by my male doctor. He has since been struck off. Are you really saying that I should not have a choice re the biological sex of my health care professional?
2. I was threatened by a group of transsexuals in a women’s toilet. One of them went on to commit murder. I would feel scared to be threatened by anyone, but these men had a huge advantage of me physically. Are you really saying that I should welcome physical males into female-only spaces
3. Why is the Green Party going against the Equality Act 2010 part 7?
4. Why is the Green Party seeking to silence debate on this subject?
5. Why is the Green Party silent on the threats to women who want to discuss this? (Link to terfisaslur website)

I thought that the Green Party was the party of science. Why is it ignoring basic biological fact?
You are not on the side of history. This will come back to bite you.
The Emperor has no clothes.’^

The response I got back was:

^‘As stated in our initial response, the Green Party respects all our members, and works hard to ensure we promote equality and fairness.

Please address your legal or medical questions with the relevant authorities.’^

Yesterday – a new development. A Green Party councillor was canvassing in my street. I got chatting to her and she seemed to understand my concerns. She took my email address and told me that she had linked to the petition on her Facebook page. She invited me on the page for a chat. I spent a good couple of hours there, so I won’t repeat it all but here are some of the gems:
In response to my comment about Mumsnet - 'I'm speechless. Mumsnet (possibly 100% heterosexual women with children) is not the place to educate yourself.

On the request for consultation with women –‘ It reminds me tragically of the kind of stuff right wing evangelicals come out with in the US.’
In response to my question about how self-id will play to religious communities – ‘Who cares?’
Despite many, many attempts to get them to define the word woman, no one responded.
About me personally –‘Appalling way to think. And if you're in the Green party then i'm utterly ashamed!’

There were several attempts to get the GP councillor to remove the petition -she still has not done so and seems to be sympathetic. Last night our area got a boost in signatures. – So some light.

Good rant MsMcWoodle

Frankly I think you're wasted on these people. You've tried again and again to engage with them and they've given you nothing but patronising dismissive bollocks back.

If they don't want women voting for them I suppose it's their deposit.

@MsMcWoodle you tried your best. I’m sorry you feel so disenfranchised from a political party you have been a member of for years.
I don’t understand how then GP can turn their back on basic fucking science.

PoulaFisch
I wonder if you or GibbertyFlibbert can see the conflict of rights in the example I have linked to with regards a female patient and transsexual nurse?

Hmm, I think it's mixed. There's a lot of writing there, so she's obviously gone to some effort and I think that should send a message. Also she has acknowledged and said she'll stand up for your right to see a woman doctor (though of course this will be difficult if birth certificates are changed and it's difficult to establish someone is a man). The transwomen are women thing is clearly a load of shite, though notice she words it that it's Green Party policy rather than that's what she thinks. She's in a difficult situation - imagine what would happen to her if she said anything else. I don't really think many of the the Green Party members I know would support this, but I'm still staying out of it for the moment. Thanks for tagging me!

Are you going to reply MsMcWoodle? I really hope you do, your post above is really good I think, and some of the comments like Rowan just made should be heard. I wouldnt blame you if youve completely had enough of the GP though TBH.

*Today 19:16 R0wantrees

PoulaFisch
I wonder if you or GibbertyFlibbert can see the conflict of rights in the example I have linked to with regards a female patient and transsexual nurse?*
As someone who provides patient care on a daily basis I did not think of that story as a conflict of rights. More a failure of the nurse to recognise her patient's unease and act on it appropriately.
The nurse may have carried out her duties brilliantly that day and treated several patients who were satisfied with her. Unfortunately one person objected and complained, but it is possible the nurse should have recognised the unease and asked a colleague to carry out the smear.

Lucas's reply is better than I thought it would be, tbf. I don't envy the position she's in. I think most public figures have no choice other than to be fence-sitters.

PoulaFisch
I wasn't making a value judgement.

I was recognising specific rights:

• the nurse eg employment, gender identity.

• the woman who was a patient eg to ask for and have a female nurse for intimate procedures.

It's a conflict of facts, surely? The patient requests a female, which has a particular meaning to her. The nurse identifies as female, which has a particular meaning to them. The two meanings are incompatible. The nurse shouldn't have been placed in that situation where there has been a fudging of the facts by their employer and the law. And damn sure the patient shouldnt have been either. We can't all get what we want in this situation. Why especially is it the biologically female patient who has to accept someone else's facts and give way? Hmm, what could possibly influence her to do that?

If a white patient insisted she wouldn't be treated by a black nurse the patient would be being racist and the hospital would be in their rights not to treat her. Exactly the same if a patient objects to a trans nurse

Thank you for demonstrating the problem.

They wouldn't be within their rights not to treat her but they would be well within their rights to say 'your clinician is black, have the treatment or don't'. Though in practice an employer might either be institutionally racist or protective of its BAME staff and handle it differently. This situation is more like a patient requesting a white doctor and being told 'you can have a white doctor' and seeing that the doctor was black. A conflict of facts.

GibbertyFlibbert

You have just compared a woman who requests that an intimate gynaecological procedure is done by a female to a racist.

cf
"A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women’s psychiatric ward with an “extremely male-bodied” transgender patient. Philippa Molloy, 42, said she was “genuinely, absolutely terrified” because she had suffered a relapse in her condition that made her irrationally terrified of men – including her own husband
When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”.

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

"Your right not to eat broccoli is important to me. In line with current nutritional advice, it's Mummy's policy to feed you cute little trees from the Fairy forest."

lolololololol!!!

R0wantrees
The answer above is the best I can do and after reading the article thoroughly, is similar to the Trust's response.
If a female patient objects to intimate care being provided by a male or an early transition male to female transsexual then the care giver should simply ask a colleague to provide the care.
This type of decision making takes place on a regular basis. Even if on occasion the patient does not verbally express concern, it's usually possible to pick up other non verbal signs and give way.
We can argue about rights all day but the above are the practicalities of the situation and normal practice. Any way let's not derail the thread further. :)

GibbertyFlibbert the correct parallel with race would be a black patient asking to see a black nurse, perhaps they shared some experience, or the patient had been treated badly by a white nurse previously, whatever. A white nurse turns up to do the procedure. The patient is confused, anxious. The white nurse says ‘But I am black’ The patient is upset, feels unsafe, would rather not have the procedure, leaves.

Look at the power dynamic between black and white, and men and women.

Sorry just realised I too am derailing!

I too was impressed st least with the level of consideration Caroline Lucas seemed to give to your questions OP.

Warming to my theme about the Green Party and how no-one is going to take them seriously on issues of science and analysis:

If the Green Party can’t tell the difference between ‘Biologically Female’ and ‘Dysphoric Feelings’, how can they seriously challenge any scientific finding from Climate Change Myths to Air Pollution.

I am confused as to why they have given in to this flimflam and thrown objectivity under the bus. Maybe it is for needy woke supporters?

PoulaFisch
I am very aware of the practicalities and paractise.

It was a straightforward question about recognising that there are conflicting rights.

Given your professional experience, perhaps you would like to comment on GibbertyFlibberty's suggestion that a woman asserting her wish to be treated by a female for intimate gyny examinations was akin to a racist and the hospital would be in its rights to deny her further treatment?

I was just wondering how many party leaders have straight out said "trans women are women". Above we have CLP for the GP. I believe JC said it on film. Have the other leaders actually said/written it or have they skirted round the topic? (I'm aware that all parties support the GRA reforms).

So CL has full on drank the cool aid. The Green Party is enjoying the emperor's new parade through town.

GibbertyFlibbert Tue 05-Jun-18 19:53:44
If a white patient insisted she wouldn't be treated by a black nurse the patient would be being racist and the hospital would be in their rights not to treat her. Exactly the same if a patient objects to a trans nurse.

Don't compare rape survivors with racists.

Caroline Lucas is a very smart woman. She has a PhD in English lit, suggesting that her critical thinking skills must be decent.

I doubt she believes that trans women are women, but I don't think there's anything she can do about it without being fired. Who knows, once she has officially stepped down from being leader, she may change her tune.

Thanks all. I will digest your responses. Apart from the wankers obs.

But Georgdie

This would have been such an excellent point at which CLP could have said the truth - she's resigning after all. So why say it?