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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Update on interactions with the Green Party on self-id

150 replies

MsMcWoodle · 19/03/2018 10:53

Update on my interactions with the Green Party for anyone who is interested.
Letter to Baroness Jenny Jones – reply from her office saying that she shared my concerns.
Letter to GP head office. I will share it here so that you can fully understand the response – then I’ll have to name change… This is after a bit of back-and-forth where they were trying to palm me off. My letter -

‘This is not a minor policy disagreement. This is fundamental. Please could I have an answer to my questions?

^1. I was abused by my male doctor. He has since been struck off. Are you really saying that I should not have a choice re the biological sex of my health care professional?
2. I was threatened by a group of transsexuals in a women’s toilet. One of them went on to commit murder. I would feel scared to be threatened by anyone, but these men had a huge advantage of me physically. Are you really saying that I should welcome physical males into female-only spaces
3. Why is the Green Party going against the Equality Act 2010 part 7?
4. Why is the Green Party seeking to silence debate on this subject?
5. Why is the Green Party silent on the threats to women who want to discuss this? (Link to terfisaslur website)

I thought that the Green Party was the party of science. Why is it ignoring basic biological fact?
You are not on the side of history. This will come back to bite you.
The Emperor has no clothes.’^

The response I got back was:

^‘As stated in our initial response, the Green Party respects all our members, and works hard to ensure we promote equality and fairness.

Please address your legal or medical questions with the relevant authorities.’^

Yesterday – a new development. A Green Party councillor was canvassing in my street. I got chatting to her and she seemed to understand my concerns. She took my email address and told me that she had linked to the petition on her Facebook page. She invited me on the page for a chat. I spent a good couple of hours there, so I won’t repeat it all but here are some of the gems:
In response to my comment about Mumsnet - 'I'm speechless. Mumsnet (possibly 100% heterosexual women with children) is not the place to educate yourself.

On the request for consultation with women –‘ It reminds me tragically of the kind of stuff right wing evangelicals come out with in the US.’
In response to my question about how self-id will play to religious communities – ‘Who cares?’
Despite many, many attempts to get them to define the word woman, no one responded.
About me personally –‘Appalling way to think. And if you're in the Green party then i'm utterly ashamed!’

There were several attempts to get the GP councillor to remove the petition -she still has not done so and seems to be sympathetic. Last night our area got a boost in signatures. – So some light.

OP posts:
Pratchet · 02/04/2018 01:00

At least we still have hope. Think of Canada and Greece.

MsMcWoodle · 04/04/2018 14:07

Still no reply.
I have followed up with this email to Caroline Lucas:
"Hi
I still have not received and answer to my email below, however I would now also like to bring something else to your attention.
Aimee Challoner has tweeted that she has a list of 'TERFs' that she circulates on twitter, with the aim of preventing 'transphobic' abuse. She has said that this list comprises 50,000 people.

  1. The list has been published on Twitter. I have a copy of the list. It includes many real names, not just Twitter names.
  2. This list has been used to 'DOXX' these people, so that they are threatened with violence, disciplinary action at work, eviction from their homes and so on. I think that this list must be illegal. If a list is necessary to stop online abuse, that is one thing, however to publicly label 50,000 people as transphobes and publish their names is both vindictive and a little bit bonkers. Regards"
OP posts:
WeAreGerbil · 04/04/2018 18:08

Thank you for doing this. I am a long time Green Party member and was part of the LGB group (or possibly just L&G group) a long time ago. I've stepped back from being active for various personal reasons, but this whole thing doesn't make me feel inclined to engage. I'm interested to know what you get back though (if anything). There is also some sort of disputes committee I seem to remember, which could be a way to go with the Terfblocker list, particularly for anyone who is on it.

Lovelyusername · 04/04/2018 21:23

I have mailed the lovely Caroline before. Maybe I should follow up while you are also on the case

MsMcWoodle · 05/04/2018 10:56

WeAreGerbil I have now stopped my sub - so I don't know about using the disputes procedure as it is probably members. I think I will probably be met with a wall of silence, however apparently you need to contact the organisation with concerns before you can go down the data protection route. I think that there is a strong possibility that what they have done with terfblocker is illegal.
Lovelyusername Did you get a response? Please do follow up as the more pressure the better.

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Thesecondtoast · 05/04/2018 11:14

Surely any lists of email addresses related to political opinions come under the new GDPR regulations? The possible fines for breaches are massive.

Ereshkigal · 05/04/2018 15:19

They're not email addresses so I think it's currently a bit of a grey area. Where the twitter handles are real names where people can be identified I think there's a problem. I think any organisation should make it clear that they do not condone this type of behaviour under their banner because potentially I think this could land them in hot water.

Angryresister · 05/04/2018 15:51

If I am not on the list , I want to know why!!

MsMcWoodle · 05/06/2018 17:27

For anyone who is still interested - @WeAreGerbil??? I got a reply from Caroline Lucas.
Here it is:
Thank you for writing to me and for your patience waiting for a response. I get a huge amount of correspondence and hope you will understand that I give priority to that from constituents.

I know Green Party policy on trans and women’s rights is being discussed in many local parties and amongst members, and the first point to make is that I support these discussions and am wholly committed to defending the right to free speech. I also hope that discussing what, for many people, is a new way of thinking about gender is an opportunity to learn about different people’s experiences, and that this can be done respectfully by all involved. I don’t think that labelling people is helpful and nor do I think that social media is the best forum to advance understanding or explore what are for many of us difficult questions.

I am proud the Green Party has played an active part in helping to secure many of the hard won rights that all women enjoy today. And we know that we still have far to go in the campaign for true equality and an end to the patriarchy. The Green Party believe that standing up for trans rights is a fundamental part of that campaign, and that we have more to gain by working together to challenge the prejudice, discrimination and exclusion all women and all trans people continue to face.

For us this is about solidarity and standing with people who have both been previously denied a voice and who have routinely suffered severe discrimination. We know, for example, that women are far more likely to experience sexual violence, objectification or financial exclusion than men. And we know too that trans people are far more likely to experience hate crime or be subject to sexual abuse than to be the perpetrator. In line with current law, it is our policy that trans women are women and trans men are men.

I understand that there are very deeply felt fears about the way women’s rights, including trans women’s rights, will be protected in future and I wanted to look specifically at your specific and important points.

I absolutely support a woman’s right to see a woman GP and your experience clearly underlines why this is so important. Proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act will not affect someone’s right to see a woman doctor or to be accompanied by a chaperone when they see a medical professional, for example, as often happens already. Nor will they make the system either more or less open to abuse by eg men wanting to commit crimes such as the one you suffered. I want women to feel safe and have campaigned tirelessly to this end. Your right to see a woman doctor is important to me and I promise to continue to stand up for that right.

Proposed changes to the law on self-declaration would bring the UK in line with countries such as Argentina, Denmark, and the Republic of Ireland. The latter has had a similar system to what’s proposed for the UK since 2015 and there is no evidence that this has led to an increase in, for example, men abusing the system to access women only spaces. When it comes to toilets, a man is not legally prevented from entering a women’s only toilet at present, nor is anyone required to “prove” their gender to gain access. As such, recommended reforms to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act will not change anything. Gender neutral toilets are favoured by some people and we think that providers should continue to listen to users – if there’s a demand for both segregated and gender neutral facilities, that’s what should be provided.

Nobody should be threatening you and I am sorry you had such a horrible experience. It’s really important we continue to challenge and call out gendered violence without conflating unacceptable behaviour by transwomen or transmen with the fact they are trans. In most instances you will never have known that a transwomen who has not had surgery has shared toilet space with you – and they will not have been a threat. I completely understand why you feel at risk and believe that challenging gendered violence is the way to make us all feel truly safer, not denying trans rights.

You ask about the Green Party breaching the Equality Act Part 7 and if you have specific examples and evidence of this I would actively encourage you to make a formal complaint. You can do so in writing to [email protected]

I am personally deeply saddened by the violence and abuse that has been a feature of discussion about changes to the Gender Recognition Act, on all sides of the debate. I condemn all use of violence and want to reiterate my support for free speech and for the current laws on hate speech and hate crime to be strengthened.

Listening, understanding and respecting are fundamental parts of our Green philosophy. If Green Party members are threatened by other members for expressing their views or asking questions as part of a learning process, I want that to be subject to the complaints process. This can be also used by anyone who thinks the views expressed by members are at odds with our policies or constitute sexism, homophobia, transphobia and so forth. We know that many of our members are learning about trans rights and how they relate to women rights, and we hope that learning can be positively supported. We want to expect the best of people, and hope that potentially unintentional transphobia, for example, can be called out in ways that seek to educate, rather than perpetuate division. I also hope that everyone taking part in the discussion will be mindful of the hurt they might cause, even unintentionally, and of the downsides of communication via social media.

The proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act will be subject to extensive consultation and you’ll have the chance to put forward your views. I think this is a hugely important process - a chance to think and learn about the genuine implications of the changes for us all, and an opportunity for all women to have a say on how their lives will be affected. We want to play a positive role in facilitating this process through, for example, fringes at Green Party conference this autumn. I am definitely not trying to silence anyone in this debate. I’d also note that the debate is complex and that some policies may evolve over time as new research and evidence emerges. That is an inevitable part of the discussion process and I welcome it.

I recognise too that this discussion is a difficult one for some people and am proud the Green Party isn’t shying away from that. We need members like you to continue to ask the questions that matter and ensure that everyone’s voices are heard – respectfully and in recognition that we are all on a political journey. I believe we are stronger when we all stand together and focus more on the things that unite rather than divide us. That’s why your membership really matters to us – and we hope you’ll continue to stand with us as we champion both trans people’s rights and women’s rights.

Best wishes, Caroline

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 05/06/2018 17:50

In line with current law, it is our policy that trans women are women and trans men are men

...

Your right to see a woman doctor is important to me and I promise to continue to stand up for that right

This is either incoherent drivel or it's brazen gaslighting

Sad
GibbertyFlibbert · 05/06/2018 17:56

Great response from Caroline

Terfulike · 05/06/2018 18:02

Well done. The GP do actually seem worse on this issue than any of the others. And it is strange as used expect them to be against taking hormones and unnecessary surgery, and to embrace humanity "au naturelle".

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 18:22

Proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act will not affect someone’s right to see a woman doctor or to be accompanied by a chaperone when they see a medical professional

The the example below was when I became aware of the potential for conflicting rights:

A woman requested a female to carry out a smear test (it seems likely that there may be specific reasons for this )

It would not be neccesary to arrange to have a chaperone for a female nurse to carry out a smear test.

The nurse was transgender and so has important employment rights.

The rota system did not (could not?) identify that the nurse was not female born.

I was concerned that based on the reported conversation, the nurse did not show an understanding of the patient's needs, concerns or rights:
"When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual"

From the article below there are wider concerns:
"James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, said self-certification would create many similar situations arising in the future. “We apologised to this patient for the recording error and because the staff member accepted they didn’t manage the situation appropriately.” Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust “Politicians have not thought through all the implications of allowing self-certification,” he said"

"The woman declined to go ahead with the examination – given to women aged 25 to 49 every three years and every five years for women aged 50 to 64 – and complained about her treatment. She stressed her complaint was not about the nurse’s appearance or gender status."

inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

MsMcWoodle · 05/06/2018 18:23

Thanks terf
tallula Ha yes - I have responded. Bit of a rant though:
Yesterday I had a meeting in Brighton with another feminist. We met on line, communicated by encrypted email, and met in a public place, using a password. I had to meet her on her own for an ‘interview’ before meeting the other members of her growing group.
She is a mum of two and a volunteer at a children’s group, from a BRIGHTON suburb. THIS IS HAPPENING IN YOUR TOWN – the town that I grew up in and that was famous for its open atmosphere.
Now in Brighton women are scared to meet to discuss women’s rights.
You talk about solidarity. Your actions are having the opposite effect. Any sympathy for transwomen’s rights are fast disappearing as we deal with daily threats to punch, rape and kill us.
How can you stand up for my right to see a woman doctor if, as you say, ‘transwomen are women’? Really, how can you actually do that?
You talk about countries that have introduced similar laws and say that there have been no problems. This is rubbish and you must know it. Too many scandals to mention here, but can we talk about Canada and the women’s refuge that had to spend $100,000 fighting for the rights to exclude a trans man from the refuge? Or what about the Target restroom saga?
Now there are reports of what is happening inside women’s prisons in this country, with vulnerable women being put at risk.
You say that women are no more at risk because of the changes in law – why, then, were we given safe spaces in the first place? What has changed that we don’t need them now? You know as well as I do that Self Id is the thin end of a very nasty wedge. At the moment, women feel that they can confront a man who is in a safe space. Now women are losing the right to say ‘no’.
You say that we shouldn’t conflate ‘unacceptable behaviour by transwomen or transmen with the fact they are trans’ – this means we cannot call out male violence. It also ignores the fact that these men had a huge physical advantage.
You say ‘In most instances you will never have known that a transwomen who has not had surgery has shared toilet space with you’. Frankly, how dare you be so patronising. I know.
You talk about ‘unintentional transphobia’ – I hope that wasn’t directed at me. I don’t include men in my feminism, why should I? Transmen, (i.e. biological women) are very much included.
Finally, what on earth are you doing, buying into the rubbish that somehow being a woman is something to do with a ‘feeling’ while women are oppressed due to their biology every day. Apart from anything else, you insult women by conflating their sex with stereotypes of femininity.
I’m finished with the Green Party.

OP posts:
Terfulike · 05/06/2018 18:24

I am personally deeply saddened by the violence and abuse that has been a feature of discussion about changes to the Gender Recognition Act, on all sides of the debate.

I haven't heard about violence during discussion about changes to the GRA from GC women.

Terfulike · 05/06/2018 18:26

Maybe they mean literal violence Blush

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 18:31

MsMcWoodle

Aimee Challoner recent comment article:
'It’s hard tackling transphobia when the BBC propagate it'
(concludes)
"The BBC may see it appropriate to give a platform to those who are abusive online, but I don’t and clearly, neither does Twitter. The type of abuse that goes on online is horrendous and it affects so many people on a daily basis. I’ve previously written about the issue calling for urgent action; I’m pleased to see that Twitter is doing taking it. I am willing to continue have discussions with the BBC and others, on how we can achieve factual news articles that are fair and balanced, and don’t propagate harm against LGBTIQA+ people. Finally, let me make it clear, I am not a man. I have never been, and I never will be. I am a woman. I am open about my trans history, but first and foremost I am a woman. In the Green Party, we are clear on our policy; Trans Women are Women. Trans Men are Men. Non-Binary Identities are Real and Valid."

inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/bbc-transgender/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262965-Good-article-today-BBC-on-the-twitter-ban-on-womens-free-speech-on-trans-issues?pg=1

MsMcWoodle · 05/06/2018 18:31

I think that must be it!

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MsMcWoodle · 05/06/2018 18:32

Truth hurts.

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Theswaggyotter · 05/06/2018 18:33

Exactly the violent threats are only ever one way. Total gaslighting and very disappointing

QuoadUltra · 05/06/2018 18:35

That response is horrendous.

‘Transwomen are women.’ There goes the fucking science part, Green Party.

If you can’t manage issues of biology, who’s going to give damn what you have to say on complex ecosystems?

Terfulike · 05/06/2018 18:39

If you can’t manage issues of biology, who’s going to give damn what you have to say on complex ecosystems?

That's a fantastic rebuttal to the GP Quoad

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 18:41

I believe that a great deal of leverage may come from collected online comments. Especially Twitter receipts.
In the House of Commons debate on homophobia, biphobia and transphobia this was referenced.
I have also seen NUS trans officers make a visual point by printing these out.
Its impossible not to be shocked by seeing these and we should all condemn this.

I wonder how Twitter has been used in the last few months by some activists eg use of blocks, trolling, inflamatory comments by some prominant TRAs has contributed to this.

I would be interested to know how people with GC views are represented to MPs etc.

KittyPerry77 · 05/06/2018 18:50

Hilarious - like how you talk to a kid, "Your right not to eat broccoli is important to me. In line with current nutritional advice, it's Mummy's policy to feed you cute little trees from the Fairy forest."

PoulaFisch · 05/06/2018 18:56

GibbertyFlibbert

Great response from Caroline

Yes. Thoughtfully written and considerate. Nice response.