Is choosing to be a SAHM a feminist decision?

[user1471506568]

Ok so I'm a SAHM and would also strongly identify as a radical feminist although admittedly I still am learning about all of this. I understand that liberal feminism is more about the individual as opposed to the class movement so under that philosophy being a SAHM is an acceptable feminist decision but I'm confused about the rad fem stance.

I can see how from a financial perspective being a SAHM is a bit of a backward step for feminism, but this is such a narrow view and I don't think money is the only measure of worth . In fact it strikes me as an extremely patriarchal measure where the balance will always be tipped to men earning more due to women having children.

I would be really interested in people's views on this. Can I be a radical feminist and a SAHM or am I letting down the class movement?

NB: Please don't take this as negative judgement of any working mothers as I respect everyone's decision to do what's best for them.

Solely advantaging your own family is not Radical Feminism.

I meant as opposed to advantaging the patriarchal capitalist system.

Lilting I don't think that encouraging and valuing solely women as sahp is progress for feminism, no matter how much the role is recognised as adding value to the family and society.

You have to make men do it too.

But they don't, mostly women do.

But not exclusively. So I used the term SAHP. So shoot me..,,

You have to make men do it too.

And how do you do this? By stigmatising the role and the women who do it? Don't think so...

@SweetheartNeckline we've got to start somewhere. Educate girls properly, support women returning to work, make meaningful paid paternity leave compulsory, etc.

I would like my daughter to expect her future partner to do 50 per cent at home whether that's at the same time or at another time in their children's lives. My husband will take the same amount of time off work as me when our baby is born. He may go part time afterwards.

The day there are equal numbers of sahd as SAHM is the day I'll say women have a proper choice in the matter and we've made some progress. Simply saying how brilliant being a SAHM is isn't feminism.

No that's not what I said. None of the policies I've suggested stigmatise sahp.

I have no issue with the idea of one part of a couple taking on a SAH role for a few years to support the other. I have an issue with people pretending it doesn't matter that men continue to wield most of the economic power and senior positions in business and politics because women are still held back from equality by child rearing responsibilities- KIDS ARE BOTH PARENTS responsibility! Making it less uncool to be a SAHM won't fix that.

No that's not what I said. None of the policies I've suggested stigmatise sahp.

I was not referring to the policies you mentioned, grumpy, but rather the way the role of SAHP is spoken about by posters, in that it is deemed 'anti feminist' and the skills a SAHP might acquire whilst being a SAHP have been minimised, on this thread.

Also if both parents are in part time family friendly jobs, that's hardly advantaging the patriarchal capitalist system because 1) they'd pay less tax than 1 high earner + 1 SAHP 2) they'd be sharing career and domesticity equally and 3) they wouldn't be perpetuating the facilitated worker culture

Making it less uncool to be a SAHM won't fix that.

Neither would making it more 'uncool' to be a SAHM. Feminists should be supporting women not adding to their oppression.

Before I say anything else, I must point out that I am not a radical feminist. I have just been explaining the RL position on SAHMs.

As for what can be done? I would love to see legislation introducing compulsory paternity leave at the same rate as SMP. I would love to see more men SAH. The more men who do this, the fewer will be "lauded" as it will be the norm. I have no doubt that they would participate in competitive parenting at the same rate as mothers.

And it would be one in the eye of patriarchal capitalism as employers would be taking chances on all employees of child having age, making women a better bet. As well as showing that there are more important things than money.

It would benefit children in having real parental input from both parents and seeing that raising children and keeping a home is not something that is a parent/adult responsibility, not a woman's. And making a world where our girls can actually be whatever they want to be without having the odds stacked against them before they start.

Also if both parents are in part time family friendly jobs, that's hardly advantaging the patriarchal capitalist system because 1) they'd pay less tax than 1 high earner + 1 SAHP 2) they'd be sharing career and domesticity equally and 3) they wouldn't be perpetuating the facilitated worker culture

Never said it was.

That should be RF position, not RL.

Grumpy I agree.

Fwiw though women often do not help ourselves on this topic. Martyrdom, overanalysis of our own failings, a need to justify our choices, ridiculous levels of gratitude when a man is a decent human being, a snigger and "men can't multitask" and "Don's babysitting (his own) DC tonight" met with a chorus of "woo lucky yous".

I also think that for most people outside Mumsnet's white, middle class, SE England demographic, paid work is not a fulfilling, life affirming experience which of course means many women don't want to "let" their DPs have a share of the parental leave.

The bottom line is and always has been that most people are just muddling through.

" the skills a SAHP might acquire whilst being a SAHP have been minimised, "

I think you are on your own there lilting. Sorry, but wohp could simply argue that doing everything a sahp does PLUS working means they are even more skilled! I have seen this argument so many times on here.

I've managed renovation projects at home on top of working full time for example. And caring for children is a particular skill that is irrelevant in most careers (except sometimes managing your boss's tantrums )

people have given very sensible suggestions on this thread about how to keep up skills and training relevant to your workplace but you continue to get upset that people won't agree that sahp in itself has some kind of added value? I agree that time out shouldn't be seen as a negative per se, just want to be clear about that! But realistically time out is experience lost out on in your chosen career. That's why I'm making my DH do half of it!

I have just been explaining the RL position on SAHMs.

What, as the self appointed expert, on what constitutes radical feminism?

@liltingleaf but you are saying that SAHM is going against the current patriarchal capitalist system and i disagree - SAHM are facilitating a long hours (Male) worker, and perpetuating gender stereotypes. You as a family will pay more in taxes.

"Neither would making it more 'uncool' to be a SAHM. Feminists should be supporting women not adding to their oppression."

You aren't actually hearing what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to demonise the role. I'm saying men should also do it if it's necessary for that role to exist (in the absence of a PT working family friendly utopia economy!)

"As for what can be done? I would love to see legislation introducing compulsory paternity leave at the same rate as SMP. I would love to see more men SAH. The more men who do this, the fewer will be "lauded" as it will be the norm. I have no doubt that they would participate in competitive parenting at the same rate as mothers.

And it would be one in the eye of patriarchal capitalism as employers would be taking chances on all employees of child having age, making women a better bet. As well as showing that there are more important things than money.

It would benefit children in having real parental input from both parents and seeing that raising children and keeping a home is not something that is a parent/adult responsibility, not a woman's. And making a world where our girls can actually be whatever they want to be without having the odds stacked against them before they start."

@DioneTheDiabolist totally agree with this

"I also think that for most people outside Mumsnet's white, middle class, SE England demographic, paid work is not a fulfilling, life affirming experience which of course means many women don't want to "let" their DPs have a share of the parental leave."

@SweetheartNeckline very true and very good point.

OP here. Finally learnt how to name change

DIonne
'The impact of SAHMs goes beyond the financial impact on the individual woman. It impacts the children growing up associating women with caring roles and wifework and men with earning and free time. Thereby passing on patriarchal notions to theiron sons and daughters.'

I find this a bit patronising to be honest. No my kids will not grow up with these stereotypes as my husband does plenty of caring and wife work in the hours when he's not at work. As I see it, I am primary carer only for the hours he's at work and any childcare required in the evenings or weekends is split as are most household chores. They see him cleaning the loos, changing the beds, doing the night get ups etc and see he doesn't get anymore free time than I do. As they get older we will explain to them why we adopted these roles, the value we think they add and how they will be free to make their own choices as they get older. To be honest I imagine by the time that we will be having these conversations in any great depth I will be back at work anyway and that will be another discussion about how you can be many things over a lifetime and they all don't have to fit into societies idea of what's best.

There is also the impact on women in the workplace. While employers have a pool of "facilitated" men to draw from (in terms of availability to study, travel and put in overtime), women and non facilitated men who place more value on parenting and pulling their weight wrt the family will continue to be 2nd choice for employment and promotion.

I agree with your point but would argue this isn't a SAH issue but wider one about women facilitating men's careers. A lot of working mother's pick up the slack for their partners too and you just don't see men facilitating women in the same way. As a SAHM I actually would not facilitate study, overtime or travel other than what was absolutely necessary as quite frankly I don't want to add to the hours that I solo parent. We both chose to have kids and knew the responsibilities associated with this, the fact he works doesn't absolve him of these responsibilities. Like I said earlier, I view my role as a SAHM like any other job role with core hours. It does not mean I become a slave to his career or am the domestic skivvy.

Sorry, but wohp could simply argue that doing everything a sahp does PLUS working means they are even more skilled!

You're ignoring the fact that many (most) women, currently, do not make the choice to be a SAHP for an extended period of time, within a vacuum. Most often their specific circumstances mean than working in paid employment becomes impossible.

My own circumstances were that my D.C. had a Statement of Special Educational Needs and I had to advocate for them which involved many meetings, a whole lot of research and whilst coping with a lengthy period of my DC's illegal exclusion as well as caring for a D.C. with additional needs. There are many women who find themselves in similar situations. I was best placed to do this, rather than my DH, because of my specific background in education.

" As a SAHM I actually would not facilitate study, overtime or travel other than what was absolutely necessary as quite frankly I don't want to add to the hours that I solo parent. "

@Bumpitybumper that's great, and it works for your set up, but often what happens is that the earning partner's career takes off and so for the good of the family it "makes sense" for him to travel more, put in the hours etc.. I can see many people starting out with intentions like yours and heading down the "slippery slope" of facilitation

Totally agree with TheGrumpy
SAHM are proud that they facilitate their DH to work long hours in "big"roles paying X amount of tax but if a woman WOH its propping up the patriarchy
So which is it ?

@liltingleaf that's a really specific situation where what you were doing was relevant to your work. Not so for most