Is choosing to be a SAHM a feminist decision?

[user1471506568]

Ok so I'm a SAHM and would also strongly identify as a radical feminist although admittedly I still am learning about all of this. I understand that liberal feminism is more about the individual as opposed to the class movement so under that philosophy being a SAHM is an acceptable feminist decision but I'm confused about the rad fem stance.

I can see how from a financial perspective being a SAHM is a bit of a backward step for feminism, but this is such a narrow view and I don't think money is the only measure of worth . In fact it strikes me as an extremely patriarchal measure where the balance will always be tipped to men earning more due to women having children.

I would be really interested in people's views on this. Can I be a radical feminist and a SAHM or am I letting down the class movement?

NB: Please don't take this as negative judgement of any working mothers as I respect everyone's decision to do what's best for them.

The thing about skills used as a stay at home parent, the reason they aren't valued is because everyone pretty much does it. Sure on some elements to a lesser extent, , but we still do our housework, look after our kids, clean, manage our homes, do the garden, cook, chauffeur, redecorate, budget, shop, book holidays.

Again context is relevant.

If someone is a SAHP in order to support a high earning partner's career, then they could well be managing a pretty hefty budget which includes hiring and managing staff in order to put on huge events, which promote the partner's business.

If someone is a SAHP in order to effectively advocate and care for a child with additional needs and disabilities they would most likely require a great deal of funding mechanism knowledge, specific legal knowledge, knowledge of managing specific conditions, evaluating care plans and formal professional meeting experience.

I don't think anyone is saying being at home doesn't take skill, what's being said is it takes skills that everyone is assumed to have as the default position in the job market .

When you interview someone you assume they manage their household budget, do their garden, clean their house, look after their kids. You don't ask those questions as they are irrelevant. You want to know what qualifications and experience they have other than managing their own lives, like everyone else does.

And being a nanny is looking after someone else's kids. Being responsible to another parent and doing it to their satisfaction. I certainly am not qualified to be a nanny because I was at home with my daughter during maternity leave, just like I'm not a taxi driver because I drive her or my husband someplace, and I'm not a painter decorator because I painted some rooms in my house, nor am I a chef, because I make dinner sometimes, or an accountant because I manage my personal finances.

In the job market life skills are the default position. Employers want to know what experience and qualifations you have over and above being able to manage as an adult.

It depends on the job but I would definitely be cautious of claiming transferable skills from the domestic sphere.

If someone said they were used to managing a budget because they'd been a SAHP I'd just think they were a bit naive. Certainly if there was no context on a CV. I could imagine an answer in a interview that would work with the right tone.

You don't ask those questions as they are irrelevant

I can see skills, related to the examples I have given, could be extremely relevant to a paid role. You are missing out on finding what a candidates true capabilities are, if you dismiss their role from within the home entirely. These are transferable skills.

If someone is a SAHP in order to support a high earning partner's career, then they could well be managing a pretty hefty budget which includes hiring and managing staff in order to put on huge events, which promote the partner's business

That's not being a SAHP, that's working for the partner's business.

splendide, not if that partner is employed by someone else. This is a role many wives have taken on in the past and one that many continue to do.

If they're hiring and managing staff then that's a job.

Bluntness - Nobody is qualified for anything unless they've been trained. However in all the examples you use where you have done something in a non-professional capacity, of course you have acquired and used skills that are relevant if you were to apply for a role relevant to that area. The more you did those things the more proficient you would probably become at these things.

Does that mean you could just go into one of those roles with no further qualifications/training? Of course not, but it doesn't render your experience irrelevant.

I agree that having examples of using skills in the workplace are still most valued by employers but it doesn't necessarily mean that it should be that way. I remember when I got my graduate job I had to use non workplace based examples to demonstrate certain skills as they were the best examples I had and were still relevant. Time management, thinking flexibly, using IT etc etc can all be extremely relevant to the SAH role.

If someone said they were used to managing a budget because they'd been a SAHP I'd just think they were a bit naive.

Exactly. It sounds like you're clutching at straws, and the natural conclusion is that you don't really have any work skills that you can talk about. As a pp said above, I assume that all candidates have basic life skills!

user
You have no idea whether I was a SAHP or WOHP.
You actually have just backed up the point I was trying to make -of course SAHP can make the most of their time-its not all CC -SAHP can give you time to evaluate your life and what you want from it.
Please stop with SAHP as victims .
They are just as capable and able to learn new skills as anyone else.
I have never referenced caring for my own DC or managing my finances in an interview.
Suggesting this as a good idea is doing down SAHP not suggesting they look at what interests them and exploring it further

Broken - Yes I agree with this, however if they managed for their local playgroup etc then it becomes relevant again.

Op, you're missing my point. I didn't say the skill wasn't relevant. I said it was a skill everyone was assumed to have as the default position. Be it budgeting their own finances, paying their own bills or looking after their own kids. So employers look for what you have over and above.

In addition there is no third party validation of those skills. There is no reference to be had, they don't say to your husband or kids, just how good is she with thr kids or paying bills, can you provide us with a reference. All they have is your word for it. And as said, everyone can do that.

Yes I agree with this, however if they managed for their local playgroup etc then it becomes relevant again.

Yes, absolutely. But that is a skill that they have gained as a volunteer, rather than as a SAHM. I would absolutely be interested in the skills that people can gain through voluntary work.

In addition there is no third party validation of those skills.

There does not necessarily need to be in a rigorous recruitment process. One in which assesses knowledge and skills as a defining part of the process.

Quite - I never said you were a WOHM or SAHM. I simply said that your tone in my view implied a certain attitude towards the SAHM role. I do not disagree that all humans are capable of learning new skills and this includes SAHMs . My point was more that in a SAHM you can actively use and develop skills and capabilities relevant to the workplace. I agree about budgeting FWIW however, saying all adults budget equally well in a domestic setting is obviously untrue looking at the state of the nation's personal finances so obviously somepeople are better than others at this. I guess that plays into a wider point I would make though which is just because we all do things to some extent domestically doesn't mean we do them equally well. If I was applying for a role as a gardener and had created and managed my own garden to a high standard and grown a range of difficult species then of course this requires skill and is relevant to my job application. Just because something is done in a domestic setting doesn't make it worthless or non transferable. Equally not everything is transferable from a domestic setting into a workplace.

If they're hiring and managing staff then that's a job.

Not, according to posters on here who would not count the experience if it was done unpaid in order to advance a partner's lucrative career. Not if it was done, unpaid, as part of managing a renovation project on your own home. Not if it was done, unpaid, in order to care for your own disabled child.

lilting I wonder if perhaps you're looking at this from a specific perspective but failing to see what I'm saying about how many women come to be SAHP in the context of their careers.

Yes of course there are transferable skills having been a SAHP. But are they transferable at that point in one's career? Given that many (most?) women become parents at an age where they entered their chosen profession a long time before, and as Bluntness and others have said, have long since left the days behind when those transferable skills would give them an edge.

You asked of my profession, I work in construction. I do complicated maths. I had my first child at 30 and am currently on mat leave with my second. If I now took time out to be a SAHM, how on earth would that experience be valued by anyone that I might approach to hire me afterwards - assuming, that is, that I would like to pick my actual career back up again after the break rather than suddenly deciding to start back at the bottom again as a carer or childminder? (No diss to these jobs by the way, they're no better or worse than mine and no more or less difficult or valuable, but I want women to have the option to do these jobs OR be doctors, lawyers, politicians, physicists etc....)

So of my closest friends one is an environmental scientist, one a construction consultant, one a solicitor and one a carer. How would society valuing SAHP translate into any of their industries considering it as worthy as time spent in those industries? Except perhaps the carer, although ironically she's the only one who didn't have an established career before having kids, despite a masters degree.

liltingleaf

Sorry but I still don’t think people are being derogatory about the role of sahp (though maybe people are being quite blunt).

I know a sahp who hires a cleaner, gardener and a dog walker. I would love to see her face if I suggested that this should be talked about in a job interview. She’s wanting to get back into work and is undergoing additional training.

It isn’t radical feminism to dismiss sahp as an irrelevance. It isn’t a feminist position to look at women trying to get into the workplace/ return to the workplace and tell them the last x years of their life were a waste of time as they were essentially doing fuck all.

I’ve sah for a few months and I’ve done loads of stuff. However I’m easily dismissed as a mumpreneur or a middle class yummy mummy playing at business whilst being bankrolled by my dh or one of those silly women who sell craft stuff on Facebook and everyone laughs at them. It’s not easy to get back into work as a sahp and so many women including myself did not put themselves in that difficult position because they made an uniformed choice.

Work and being a sahp is a feminist issue. If you’re in the position to offer sound advice to sahm get out there and do it. Offer placements and returnships. Set up working groups to see if you can stop women leaving the workplace in the first place. Speak to hr when you see women being discriminated against due to maternity, having children or having the potential capacity to have children. Punch up not down. It must be wonderful to have a successful career that has not been effected by dc, try and analyse that to help others rather than being self congratulatory that you didn’t have to make a bad choice.

If you’re in the position to offer sound advice to sahm get out there and do it. Offer placements and returnships. Set up working groups to see if you can stop women leaving the workplace in the first place. Speak to hr when you see women being discriminated against due to maternity, having children or having the potential capacity to have children.

Completely agree with these practical steps to supporting women.

Rat- of course skills and competencies developed in the relevant field will always be more valued as they obviously the most directly transferable and relevant. I wouldn't argue that being a SAHM would give you a competitive advantage over women that have stayed and developed in their role and industry.

I just think implying that being a SAHM automatically means you have effectively paused the development of any skills or capabilities that are relevant to the workplace is very damaging and misleading.

all adults budget equally well in a domestic setting is obviously untrue looking at the state of the nation's personal finances so obviously somepeople are better than others at this

I don't think anyone said everyone budgets equally well just that everyone budgets.

Also, the difficult bit of the budget process in a professional setting is getting the inflow correct. How much is coming in. The costs management bit is the easy side. So domestic budgeting (by anyone) is pretty irrelevant.

Again, it just makes people look naive. Sure there is a slight overlap, I guess, between making sure you have enough money in the right place for the bills and making sure you've allocated correctly for staff costs and overheads. I can't think of any domestic budgeting aspect that touches on predicting the market activity in your industry over the next 12 months to get as near as possible to an accurate prediction of sales activity and pipeline.

Not at all saying this can't be learned by people (SAHM or otherwise) who haven't done it before but if you think that running a household budget is at all analogous to running a departmental budget then I'm sorry but all that tells me is you have no idea about business budgeting.

Just as a sign-off, I feel like I've landed the wrong side of the argument here because I am a big fan of employing returning mothers. I just wouldn't expect them to take this weird approach on their CVs.

Rat, this would depend entirely on how long you decided to SAHP for and what you did during the time. If for example you bought a wreck of a property or several and project managed their renovation from your home, you would still be 'keeping your hand in', unpaid in order to advantage your own family. You would gain / retain contacts and also have to keep up to date with current legislation.

I was challenging the idea that looking after children,managing a household and managing a household budget are all "skills" that should be referenced at interview.
These are life skills that one would hope an adult can undertake as part of normal life .
Of course (as I said) if the SAHP develops an interest in a particular area and develops this -great.
I wouldnt expect to see "managed household budget"on an application ,I wouldnt bat an eyelid if someone said they had been a SAHP/carer for a few years but I would hope they had researched prior the needs of the workplace.

My opinion, it depends on whether you believe in individual rights or collective group rights and group obligations that trump the individuals liberty. Old fashion enlightenment liberals tend to believe in the individual, communists and fascists on the far left and far right are all about their collective (the workers in the case of the left and the race or nation in the case of the far right). I’m reminded of the ‘grid girls’ debate on GMTV. There were grid girls who were made redundant on who were clearly intelligent and knew their own minds claiming that they didn’t feel exploited and had now been prevented from doing something they wanted to do. There were some feminists on the other side of the debate saying that it really didn’t matter what those women wanted for themselves, they were the leaders of feminism and had hence decided what was best for women as a group or a class, and since grid girls was bad for women as a class it had to be banned regardless of what the grid girls themselves wanted. What do you think feminism is about? Empowering women to make their own choices and live their own lives as they see fit? Or organising women as a class to get roughly equal outcomes with men, as another class?