Is choosing to be a SAHM a feminist decision?

[user1471506568]

Ok so I'm a SAHM and would also strongly identify as a radical feminist although admittedly I still am learning about all of this. I understand that liberal feminism is more about the individual as opposed to the class movement so under that philosophy being a SAHM is an acceptable feminist decision but I'm confused about the rad fem stance.

I can see how from a financial perspective being a SAHM is a bit of a backward step for feminism, but this is such a narrow view and I don't think money is the only measure of worth . In fact it strikes me as an extremely patriarchal measure where the balance will always be tipped to men earning more due to women having children.

I would be really interested in people's views on this. Can I be a radical feminist and a SAHM or am I letting down the class movement?

NB: Please don't take this as negative judgement of any working mothers as I respect everyone's decision to do what's best for them.

I don't think paid paternity will make much difference. I know several couples expecting babies and none of the men are taking more than 2 weeks off because their partners refuse to share

I get what you are saying bluntness and gilly

I think you are right shared leave is tricky as women don’t want to give up “their” leave. This would be completely separate paternal leave, paid at 90% of a mans salary.

The woman doesn’t lose her leave and the couple (or the man) can afford it.

The first step is women in power supporting women with very little. A bit of positive discrimination to even up the career disadvantages of some time being spent being a SAHP.

I do this. I have a really high level of part time and flexible working parents in my team.

I don't think SAHMing is an inherently unfeminist choice.

I agree with the pp about the difficulty in translation of SAHPing into something employers would value. Just can't see it. It's different to volunteering in the industry.

and women don't grow up expecting to have to be the main breadwinner

Why not? Why is this just taken as a given?

I never expected to be in a situation where I would depend on some one else's income and never have been.

To me, when it comes to parenting, childcare and home organisation is less about the exact dimensions of the task split and more about the level of discussion and ethos behind it.

My parents had a rule that whoever was home from work first did the bulk of the childcare and chores. When I was little my dad did all of the cooking and cleaning because he finished work early, two hours before my mum, and he had lots of spare time. When I was 7, my mum changed jobs and she started finishing earlier so she started doing most of it.

If you just looked at my mum in isolation when I was, say, 8, you'd have found a woman who was doing most of the childcare and household work, and therefore it may seem sexist. But that was only happening because of circumstances which had been pre-agreed by two equal adults.

"I would love to see decent paternity leave for men (paid at 90%). "

My DH was unable to take any paternity leave because while he's legally entitled to it, he'd only be paid statutory paternity pay of £140 per week, and we couldn't afford to live on that. When I ended up having an emergency c-section and needed support because I was physically incapacitated, he had to take a few days paid holiday. And even then his employer complained that it was inconvenient because it happened at a busy time and delayed his work. There's no way he would have got away with being allowed to take more than a week or two under any circumstances. So it's not just women who suffer from non-family-friendly policies in the workplace.

lord that is exactly how DH and I work.
I will get home at 6
He finishes at 12 today and will do the cleaning and cook dinner -Hurrah !
How patronising to say women dont grow up expecting to be the breadwinner
Seriously Ive supported myself financially my whole adult life and no doing so has never crossed my mind .

liltingleaf perhaps I'm being dense but I just can't imagine a way in which being a SAHP could be valued by employers. I can see how society could and should value child-rearing and care work - certainly from the perspective of more fair pay for work in those sectors and government/social.financial support for people taking on those roles voluntarily - but I don't understand how that value would translate to the working world. Is there a comparison you could make?

This is disappointing but entirely indicative of the low status that is assigned to traditionally (stereotypically) female roles.

Your post, Rat, even indicates one area of work staying home to rear children (singlehandedly for much of the time) would give someone skills which would translate into paid employment. That is 'care work'. Another area would be to work with children in some capacity. They might also have gained experience of disabilities and SENs if their family is affected by them. Added to this taking the lions share of responsibility for running a household involves time management and budgeting skills. If the SAHP also spent time doing any home / garden redesign or renovation these skills can also apply to paid employment. Hospitality and catering might also be relevant. A SAHP might also take up a hobby such as Yoga which might lead into a career. This is regardless of any skills and qualifications a SAHP may already have before having children.

I don't know what industry you are referring to when you say no skills a SAHP might acquire during their spent as a SAHP would be a benefit to careers in that sector but it is terribly shortsighted and rather insulting.

Added to this taking the lions share of responsibility for running a household involves time management and budgeting skills. If the SAHP also spent time doing any home / garden redesign or renovation these skills can also apply to paid employment

Well these skills aren’t exclusive to sahp.

You are of course right being a parent does give you experience in a caring capacity. Which is pretty poorly paid.
I agree with you stereotypically female jobs need to be valued more highly. I just don’t get how you “value” the role of a sahp in a capitalist society.
You don’t get paid for looking after your own kids (or cleaning your own house, or doing your own gardening etc etc).

What practical steps do you suggest so that sahp are valued more?

I just don’t get how you “value” the role of a sahp in a capitalist society.

Is feminism concerned with how to be deemed valuable in terms of a patriarchal capitalist society? Surely feminism seeks to challenge paternalistic capitalist ideologies.

What practical steps do you suggest so that sahp are valued more?

Feminists start to value SAHPs. Especially feminists who are already in positions of power. For feminist ideologies to become more embedded within society people claiming to be feminists shouldn't serve to alienate a whole sector of women.

Seriously having DC and being a SAHP doesnt mean you are skilled as a carer,nurse etc and that your "budgeting skills" translate into any type of skill.
Its utterly cringeworthy and patronising to suggest this.
You may however have a vocation for care work and thats fine.
WOHP manage their households,finances,cook,clean and look after their DC for the hours they are not at work.
Its called LIFE !😂

Feminists start to value SAHPs

What would that look like? What practical thing do you want to change so that feminists value sahp?

Quite, how utterly dismissive of these women you are. This is not feminism.

Women who are SAHPs obviously do have these skills. How do you think these women, a large amount who would have been described as 'housewives' propped up the country during WW2?

What would that look like? What practical thing do you want to change so that feminists value sahp?

The first step would be to be less derogatory of SAHPs in their rhetoric.

The first step would be to be less derogatory of SAHPs in their rhetoric

I’m not convinced there has been all that much degradation of the sahp role. People have pointed out the difficulties of being a sahp (reliant on your partners income). And that it can be hard to get back into the workforce (which it can).

The assumption that the SAHP role involves no skills which could translate into the workplace is derogatory.

It is this assumption that has the potential to cause the most economic disadvantage to people who have spent some time as a SAHP.

Nope not derogatory at all of SAHP just your terrible suggestions that managing the household budget /caring for your DC etc is a good skill to reference on an application/at interview.
Please dont do this !
I have employed many SAHP returning to the workplace who have had good advice.
Volunteer in your chosen area of interest
Find out about the company/area you want to work in.
Look at free online courses -there are loads
For example if you want to work with the elderly-its fine to say you became interested when you cared for an elderly relative but then you volunteered for The Carers Trust and did a Dementia Awareness Day .
There should be better advice for SAHP who intend to return to work imho

Quite's phrasing and attitude were obnoxiously dismissive, but she's correct that being a SAHP doesn't mean you acquire skills as a nurse. Nursing is a profession, you need specialist clinical knowledge and qualifications. HCA though, potentially. Plus roles like carer. And nursing in WW2 was a totally different occupation from now so that doesn't really tell us anything.

None of which is to say that a returning SAHP can't learn these skills, or that their experiences might not stand them in good stead to do so. The opposite, in fact. And there are some roles where the skills more obviously translate. But SAHPing in itself doesn't make you a nurse or someone who can run a departmental budget, if you weren't that previously. There's a step being missed out there.

I was dismissive of the terrible advice not SAHP.
I hate the patronising rubbish they are fed regarding returning to work.Caring is a valid and under appreciated occupation but advising those returning to the workplace to reference their budgeting skills when all adults (hopefully ) do this is ridiculous.

Quite, I find your post pretty scathing in tone. Why, in reference to feminist ideology, do you only value working paid or unpaid for a formal organisation? Surely knowledge and experience should speaks for itself? And it is an interviewer's role to discern this from a candidate's responses to relevant questions. Otherwise many capable candidates are dismissed unnecessarily. Why would a feminist only count experience relevant in employment if it served patriarchal organisations and allowed them to act as 'gatekeepers' to any kind of employment.

budgeting skills when all adults (hopefully ) do this is ridiculous.

Context is relevant. If a SAHP, due to their availability at home, has singlehandedly project managed a house renovation, for example, I would have thought the budgeting skills required would have some relevance within the workplace.

How patronising to say women dont grow up expecting to be the breadwinner

Agree, I grew up expecting to be, and have always been financially independent since leaving my fathers home. The only time I claimed benefits was when I left college and signed on the dole for about a month till I got a job. Past the child benefit, which we didn't get for the last several years it was due as we lived abroad, I've never had state support. My daughter is studying law and expects the same thing.

The thing about skills used as a stay at home parent, the reason they aren't valued is because everyone pretty much does it. Sure on some elements to a lesser extent, , but we still do our housework, look after our kids, clean, manage our homes, do the garden, cook, chauffeur, redecorate, budget, shop, book holidays. These things are not exclusive to stay at home parents, and as such hence why not valued by employers. We could all claim those skills

See, I don't think the fact that most adults manage household budgets necessarily means it can't be a relevant skill. Not something that would give a SAHP an advantage over the competition, no, but that's not the same thing.

I haven't personally found that managing my household finances is anything like managing a departmental budget when I did that, so I'm unconvinced that the former allows one to be proficient at the latter, but I can envisage certain situations where activities engaged in as a result of SAHPing might assist. The house renovation example might help if you wanted to work in a role in that sector?

Quite - whilst I appreciate that SAHMs overegging their experience to imply they've somehow acquired quite specialist skills through being at home with their kids does nobody any favours, I also think the tone with which you write your original post is quite telling. The amount of times I see on this forum posters imply that they do everything a SAHM does AND work FT or that being at home requires very little effort or skill is very depressing. Of course it belittles the SAH role. Being a SAHM is a role where it can be what you make of it. Yes, you could do the bare minimum, but equally you can do so much which would involve utilising the same skills that could be of use in the workplace. Of course there are areas where what a SAHM and working mum does would overlap, but equally in the hours a working mum is at work is it that difficult to imagine that a SAHM is also doing activities that utilise transferable skills?

Also what about a nanny? Are their skills totally untransferable outside of the caring realm?