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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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The self-ID petition is now live!

999 replies

YesItsADebate · 12/03/2018 11:52

This is the petition asking the government to consult with women on the proposals to enshrine gender identity in law.

Link: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

OP posts:
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NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 13:47

@Judas there's also been a very well liked thread on Twitter yesterday from "working class women" from New Cross/Deptford who work in the community with marginalised women (natal and trans) who say they have been subject to vicious attacks from Goldsmiths students on a TRA agenda and the would be attending the HoC David Davies organised meeting yesterday as it was the only forum in which they could be heard without being shouted down by the "priviledged" middle class students from Goldsmiths... so potentially quite a few votes coming from that.

Percypig5 · 15/03/2018 14:04

I have been following these threads with interest as I genuinely had no idea about any of this. I have seen one friend post a link to the petition on fb but aside from that mumsnet is the only place I’ve come across the issue being discussed.

I’ve just signed the petition and was only no 4800ish (from memory). It took me a while to get my head around before the penny dropped (and the outrage set in!) and I just wonder if most people don’t know about or understand the issue or think to sign the petition is not being right on and pc.

I can’t understand why it’s not being talked about more widely (or perhaps it is and I’m living in a bubble?)

LizzieSiddal · 15/03/2018 14:07

I wonder if David Davis would tweet the Petition link?

NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 14:15

@Percypig5 I'm afraid it absolutely isn't being discussed more widely precisely for those reasons you state - people a) don't realise that there is a move to allow gender to be self-identified, and the consequences that may result from this and b) if they are aware of it are worried that they have misunderstood because being supportive of trans people is obviously a good and inclusive thing to be, so how could we support a petition that appears to be the opposite.

And 'feminist' is still a dirty word to some people. And to those that it isn't, being the 'wrong kind' of feminist is a concern.

I am NOT ANTI-TRANS. I support people living as they wish without fear of abuse whatever and whoever they are. But I cannot agree that self-identifying your gender means you are in all senses a woman and biological sex can be disregarded completely, and that there isn't an unpleasant knock-on effect from this that doesn't disproportionately affect people in other minorities or traditionally persecuted groups.

It's depressing there isn't more acceptance of debate over this.

NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 14:24

For instance, have a read of this Spectator article by James Kirkup which begins:

This article is about gender and the law. When I asked several friends, politicians and journalists, about writing it, they all said the same: don’t. It will go badly for you.

Percypig5 · 15/03/2018 14:24

@Squirrels I just can’t believe at no point during the debate or whatever preceded the proposals did it not become obvious that women’s rights would be severely affected. Are any women’s refuge organisations or similar publicising the petition. Has this not been on woman’s hour or are the BBC worried it’s un-PC?

NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 14:46

Are any women’s refuge organisations or similar publicising the petition.

A lot of places already support self-ID in principle. Sad

Has this not been on woman’s hour or are the BBC worried it’s un-PC?
Jenni Murray was absolutely hauled over the coals for getting into this debate:

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/05/jenni-murray-transgender-not-real-women-sunday-times-magazine

Netfish · 15/03/2018 14:54

Signed. Interesting that the petition map shows a slightly higher than average % in Brighton. I wonder if many gay people have strong views on Self ID and the whole trans stuff.

Percypig5 · 15/03/2018 15:25

@squirrels - my first thought was women’s shelters would be all over this - shocked that’s not the case.

So Jenni Murray wrote about it but no discussion on women’s hour.

The more I learn about this the more I am in disbelief. Thanks for answering my questions. Will do all I can to highlight the petition.

NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 15:38

Women's Hour has regularly hosted debate from both sides - but must remain impartial as BBC. Presenters, again, must refrain from giving their personal opinions. The media in general is worried by speaking out on this.

Women's refuges have in practice for many years welcomed and supported trans women - as is the case with public bathrooms, women's groups and pretty much everywhere in 'civilised' society. Because the numbers are small, it's been on a case-by-case basis, I guess. Most women have no issue with trans people, and are quite happy to treat them as the gender they wish to present as on an individual basis. I know I am.

The issue is that if it becomes de-medicalised entirely - that anyone can say they are anything - and that becomes enshrined in law, it will open up a very difficult, unprecedented situation. A women's rape shelter won't be ABLE to turn away a man presenting as a women to gain access for whatever reason - even if it seems suspicious and a detriment to their core users.

The trans activists say this is hysterical talk, catastrophising - that all trans people want is the peaceable right to go about their lives not being discriminated against. But not all men who want to present as a woman are doing it for those reasons - some of them will be doing it for nefarious purposes. And if you take away the legal hoops that need to be jumped through, it becomes much easier for people with bad intentions to exploit others.

I don't see why needing 2 medical opinions that you do suffer from gender dysphoria, and the reasonable expectation that you've made steps to live fully in your chosen gender for 2 years, needs to change. And no one can seem to give a nuanced argument on that, other than that the process is 'traumatic'.

cloudtree · 15/03/2018 16:10

I'm not that surprised women's refuges are keeping their heads down. have you seen what has happened with the women's holiday centre who shared on facebook?

Melamin · 15/03/2018 16:19

The women's holiday centre is bad. I can't see why any transwoman would particularly feel the need to go there anyway. The transactivists are having a fight for the sake of it and piling on.

CapnHaddock · 15/03/2018 16:30

What the hell has happened with the women's holiday centre? Shock

Melamin · 15/03/2018 16:43

There is a thread somewhere on WR/FC. Can't find it atm.

BlackeyedSusan · 15/03/2018 16:55

only 10 grey areas.

I have been unable to talk about it on the school yard yet. waiting to find the right people. I know one who may be an option.

NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 16:58

There needs to be just one prominent mainstream share from a newspaper, or someone influential on social media, and I am SURE it will gain traction.

Melamin · 15/03/2018 17:01

It could be tweeted with tonight's meeting hashtag?

cloudtree · 15/03/2018 17:06

Go onto the facebook page for The Women's Holiday Centre and you can see

Percypig5 · 15/03/2018 17:26

Am beginning to wish I remained in blissful ignorance. Have looked at the Woman’s Holiday Centre FB thread and there is a post saying “to say a woman is only a woman if she has a vagina is the epitome of misogyny”. Confused

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/03/2018 17:27

Bloody hell! How does whoever is responding for The Women's Holiday Centre keep calm?

The weird, side stepping responses are so, well, are they aggressive, or do they just think that by making 'statement's everyone will agree they are right?

I am utterly ashamed if any of those responders really are women!

DarthArts · 15/03/2018 17:32

Has anyone got the link to the women's holiday page please?

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 15/03/2018 17:33

It is stressful reading the Facebook page.

But good that the petition is so calm and balanced

I guess a lot of those posts are just deliberate manufactured rage?

NoSquirrels · 15/03/2018 18:03

“to say a woman is only a woman if she has a vagina is the epitome of misogyny”

I'm tempted to start an AIBU thread with this title (or maybe just "the epitome of misogyny") and see what happens Grin

MrsFogi · 15/03/2018 18:10

I think it's important for as many people as possible to "Like" The Women's Holiday Centre's original post - if only to show them support (if that loses me friends/gets me hounded out of my job then so be it because if a simple thumbs up on a post like that leads to consequences we have such a huge problem that I will be willing to lose a lot to protect free speech etc).

SmurfOrTerf · 15/03/2018 18:23

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