Reconciling Trans and Feminism

[LonginesPrime]

I would consider myself to be gender critical but I respect transwomen's assertion that they feel they are women and I'm happy to respect their preferred pronouns.

As a feminist, it doesn't sit comfortably with me when transwomen say things like 'I knew I was female from a very young age as I always loved pink and played with my sister's dolls' and I personally believe that if society didn't place so much weight on gender conformity, especially when it comes to masculinity, lots of people who have transitioned probably would have been perfectly happy living their lives the way they wanted, wearing what they wanted without feeling the need to be recognised as someone of the opposite sex.

Similarly, from lesbians I know who have transitioned to male, I can absolutely see the appeal (whether on a conscious or subconscious level) of taking that step to be recognised as a man as opposed to a 'butch' woman in a society that undervalues women, and whilst I'm pleased for them and the ways their careers have advanced as a result of being perceived as male, it's disappointing to know that it does make a difference, especially when they're dressing exactly the same as they did before (i.e. in 'male' suits and waistcoats (I have some very dapper friends..)).

I have a lot of sympathy for the trans people who hate their bodies and feel they are confined by them. If someone feels they are a woman and wants to be treated as such more fool them, I have no problem washing my hands next to them in the loo or including them in the discussion at a book group. However, I don't think that male sex offenders who transition should be allowed in women's prisons and I don't believe that women attending a rape crisis centre should be forced to have anyone with a penis examine them if they're not comfortable with that.

It has taken a long time to even get to this point of reconciling my beliefs about gender and my support of the trans community and I can't claim to be completely there yet, but I'd be interested in hearing about other women's experiences of reconciling trans support with their own feminist views.

Well , first reaction, good on you for trying, and posting about it.

Some people will disagree with some of your opinions: but not erasing women's right to our own thoughts and opinions is central part of this, to me. So a diversity of opinions is not only inevitable, but to be welcomed.

Hope that does sound like I'm saying you've got it wrong: on the contrary I agree with most of it, especially your 4th paragraph.

Have you read much on the feminist section here?
It's good you are kicking the tyres of your own beliefs.

I wouldn't describe you as gender critical (you accept gender as a valid thing and consider woman not to be a biological label but a gender identity, both of these are gender supportive, the opposite to gender critical) but you are certainly questioning and that is good.

I'd spend some time browsing these threads if I were you, reading both sides of the debate. Hearing both sides really helps to develop one's own opinions.

You could be me OP, I am I only just now starting to think about this topic and what you have written is very similar to my views (at the moment!!)

I think it's a process, from the first dawning realisation that all is not right, through a better understanding of the paucity of the trans ideology's arguments and a "but the silent majority of trans aren't like this", to an end point of much more hard line views.

The key is to understand that the battle isn't against individual trans people. The battle is against a sexist (refusal to acknowledge that female oppression is based on reproductive class) and homophobic (lesbians are transphobic if they won't do ladydick) ideology that will, if not stopped, completely eradicate women's rights and gay rights, and will likely result in a far right backlash that makes Trump look like a socialist.

Thanks both.

I've been here a while but since lots of threads are posted in reaction to a specific event or article, they tend to focus on that (and the interactions between posters) rather than the core rationale behind posters' beliefs.

As a result, it appears that most posters come down very squarely on one side or the other of a debate, although I suspect that's because they have a specific view in relation to whatever the issue being discussed, as opposed to their all being completely 'black and white' in their thinking.

So I guess my aim is to see what middle ground there is and whether people do manage to reconcile the two without their heads exploding!

Feminism and Transgenderism are fundamentally incompatible.

Feminists have tried, for generations, to challenge sex-based stereotypes that limit males and females. Transgenderism reinforces these stereotypes.

Once you realise that the "born in the wrong body" narrative is a crock of shit for the most part, that only a vanishing minority of transwomen actually have gender dysphoria and most of them are doing trans for a whole host of other reasons..... it becomes clearer.

So I guess my aim is to see what middle ground there is and whether people do manage to reconcile the two without their heads exploding!

Haha. Good luck with that!

As I say, try to approach this with the understanding that it's a political ideology that radfems and others are opposing. Nobody wants to stop adults (though many object to medical intervention in minors) living in ways that make them happy or accessing medical services to ease the distress of dysphoria. Nobody wants children to be unable to express both feminine and masculine interests free from bullying, whatever their sex.

The opposition is to a political/religious ideology that says human beings have gendered souls and that these gendered souls have rights that override sex-based protections for women and do not require mature consent in the case of minor medical intervention.

The opposition is to a political/religious ideology that characterises all disagreement as hate, uses propaganda techniques, and seeks authoritarian legislation criminalising any dissent to its tenets.

Nothing to do with any individual, trans or otherwise.

My personal view is that if a child feels they are in the wrong body because they don’t fit the gender stereotypes, the answer is not that they’re the opposite sex, it’s that our gender stereotypes are too narrow.

And I think that’s very sad for children.

I would like there to be a way through this where people with gender dysphoria and men who wish to live as women and vice versa could coexist with the rest of us ( which actually was the status quo until recently.).
However right now the transgender movement is actively trying to strip female protections away and I can’t get behind that.

I too started from a position of live and let live - after reading more about this issue and the repercussions I’m now very gender critical and passionate about women’s rights.

Reading around is a good start OP.

I agree KochabRising apart from this:

I think that’s very sad for children.

It's my true belief that this is very dangerous for children.

In Northern Ireland there is yet another scandal involving priests and children. Priests are meant to instruct children on their faith pathways. You cannot be of a Catholic faith and not trust your priest with your children. It's a minefield.

So to keep on topic, trying to change a child physically to accept an adult belief is inherently dangerous for the child.

Sounds to me like you want to give some men a 'women-lite' status, where they can be women in certain situations, but not in others. I don't know how that would work, who would decide which situations are included? Do you think the likes of Paris l, India w and Munroe b, would be happy with that?

They used to seem like natural allies. There were women campaigning against gendered expectations and people who couldn't live within the gender-based constraints put upon them by society. What made us fall out?

Because, smithsinarazz, transwomen are of the same category as males. They are not women. It's up to men to work this out.

I agree with Kochabrising. I met my first m to f transexual 30 years ago, previously I'd only really heard the term on the Rocky Horror Show which was about a transvestite not transexual any way. Her discussion on why she felt she was really a woman was all about not liiiiking the rough boys and liking butterflies. At the time I was a Spare Rib reader and thought it sad she had internalised sexual stereotypes and subjected herself to mutilating surgery rather than confronting them and being a gentle male.
I do think the theory behind transexual ideology (not that I think there's just one) does go against feminist ideology in that most feminists think there isn't a particular way of behaving or thinking that makes you a woman and that sexual stereotyping restricts women. This goes completely against the idea that if you're a boy and like pink sparkly stuff and hate football then you must be a girl because that's girl behaviour and preferences not boy.
I find the men who identify as women whilst making little change to their appearance or behaviour baffling. I don't understand in what way they believe they are women, if they really believe it at all. I haven't met any in real life and the online ones seem to hate real women.

Someone said it - Women’s rights/Feminism is incompatible with trans rights/ideology. It’s been a journey for me from being a vague, shallow thinker and full supporter of trans rights - to now being quite angry and frustrated and much more hard line. Once i started to read what feminists were saying, once i started following transfolk on likes of Twitter it gradually changed my views and my tolerance levels. I don’t like the narrative, the harshness, the anger i feel - it’s a complete u turn to where i was a few years ago when i was oblivious.

My biggest anger though is how women are being treated and dismissed by males - whether from self serving trans activists to the males in labour who now they have found a condoned and popular form of abuse - seem to be using the debate to put women in their place. Basically I’m pissed off that men are getting to redefine what being a woman/female is and put the boot into uppity women at the same time. Grrrrr! 😡

Thanks all - you make some good points and I appreciate the 'woman-lite' point.

Yes, Smiths - I'm very involved in the LGBT community so this is all very out of the blue after years of what I felt was co-existence and mutual support.

I find the aggression on both sides makes it quite difficult to form what I feel is a balanced opinion - I find a some of the most vocal people on here opposed to trans rights use arguments based on prejudice instead of logic (about how trans people disgust them or how they heard about one transwoman who did x) - appreciate that most of these get deleted though - and then you have aggressive terms like 'cotton ceiling' and the shutting down of free speech and debate on the other side.

I feel very much stuck in the middle and just want peace. It's all a bit shit, isn't it?

about how trans people disgust them
Crikey! I certainly have never read anything like that on here! Are you sure?

My core rationale is that sex-segregated spaces exist for good reason and given the level of male violence towards women because of their biology, they will always be needed.

I think what I have come to realise is that just because I personally may be OK with one particular thing (topshop changing rooms for instance.... Attending a girl's school has made me more fearful of female criticism of my body than a perving man) it is important to listen to why another woman would not be OK with that thing. Also remember the slur transphobic can surely only exist because TRAs realise how many left leaning women have a problem with this. It is designed to upset people who are naturally inclusive and broad minded. It is designed to obscure facts. I'm as "phobic" about a TIM as I am about any penis owner (ie it's complicated!)

I suppose you could boil it down to this:

Trans rights = acknowledging the status of trans in anti-discrimination law so that trans people aren't discriminated against for being trans; getting trans-specific services, spaces and initiatives funded; getting decent healthcare.

Trans rights = the removal of sex-based rights.

You need to engage then with the LGBT community, and those you feel most closest to within that sphere OP.

I personally am fed up trying to sweep up the detritus of the world's problems as a woman.

It's time for men to don the aprons and sweep up the crumbs.

Men know though that women are thigh deep in those 'crumbs' That's why they won't engage.

Men, sort your lives out!

I find myself feeling similarly to the OP. While I am personally fine with sharing women’s spaces I need to access with trans women, I recognise other women may not be comfortable with it, without this being ‘transphobia’. Just because I feel OK about it doesn’t mean other people do, especially victims of sexual abuse, for example.

I am sympathetic to trans people and know several, while moving to a more ‘gender criticial’ positioning after listening to and reading about a wide variety of views. A very significant issue I saw pointed out is that trans rights issues can’t necessarily be paralleled with gay rights – increased gay rights had no impact on the rights of heterosexuals. Whereas trans rights can have an impact on women’s rights. Some women I know feel extremely angry and upset that they are being told they have to admit people who they see as men to their spaces. Friends who have experienced abuse describe spending their lives in fear of whether any man they are with is ‘safe’ or not, and find it very violating to feel as though they don’t get to define who is a man or a woman.
At the same time, I do not like people using language like ‘barging’ ‘yelling’ ‘violent’ about trans women if they say something they disagree with, or using people’s former names. I don’t like the using of photos/dating profiles that trans women may have used while exploring their identity early on and saying ‘Look! This proves he’s just a man with a kink about being female!’ I don’t like arguments along the line of ‘what if’ or ‘there was this guy who…’ to declare trans women unsafe – a number of countries have been practising self-ID for years with no evidence, AFAIK, of abusers taking advantage. I say we judge people by their behaviour, not their gender (ie, trans woman in a women’s loo minding her own business, fine; trans woman in a women’s loo rubbing her crotch at you, report them as you would anyone doing that!)

I honestly have no idea what the answer is – one friend has suggested that men make space for ‘feminised men’ rather than women having to give up their space. Do I agree with that? I don’t know. But maybe it’s worth asking.

People who behave aggressively will be described using words conveying that. "Trans women" who, for instance, lob into a conversation to make accusations, tell others what to do, name call, abuse and threaten, as often happens, are metaphorically barging in, stomping around and yelling etc. I don't see the problem with those words.

a number of countries have been practising self-ID for years with no evidence, AFAIK, of abusers taking advantage. I say we judge people by their behaviour, not their gender (ie, trans woman in a women’s loo minding her own business, fine; trans woman in a women’s loo rubbing her crotch at you, report them as you would anyone doing that!)

Do women and girls report every threat, flasher, groper, rapist, harasser, pervert they come across? Never been raped but all the others - Yes, multiple times and never reported them - especially the ones where i was a child, teen or young woman. We tend to just shuffle off, not look, run away - was that not the whole point of metoo? A lot more gobby now I’m older - but we’re conditioned to deal with it, shrug it off, not make a fuss. So tbh, we don’t know if self id will affect females negatively.

I know the women at my sports club stopped using the showers/changing rooms when a TW started using them - especially when one woman found herself herself alone with the TW when she was showering - she was very upset.

It's my true belief that this is very dangerous for children.

Yes eledon - I do agree with you. It’s sad that our kids (even average kids who just don’t conform) are pigeonholed like this, but outright abuse when it spills over into surgical and pharmaceutical permanent changes.

What a mess.

I say we judge people by their behaviour, not their gender (ie, trans woman in a women’s loo minding her own business, fine; trans woman in a women’s loo rubbing her crotch at you, report them as you would anyone doing that!)

Well herein lies the problem, explicitly.

This logic means it's up to us to report something bad happening after it has happened. This is too late.

Feminists know all to clearly that when it comes down to his word against hers in a situation involving unwanted sexual contact, she will rarely, if ever, be believed.

Men can too easily take advantage of a system that blindly accepts "I am a woman because I say so" which is the single biggest unintended consequence of this self identification belief system.

This logic, to judge individuals as individuals, also denies us the right to recognise patterns of behaviour that present within groups of people. Patterns of behaviour including how 80% of violent crime is committed by males regardless of how they identify and 98% of all sexual crime is comitted by males regardless of how they identify. Nay sayers always come along at this point to tut and say "doesn't mean all men are going to rape you" of course not. Nonetheless it is absurd to deny women logical safeguarding processes.

If you are born male, you die male. Declaring "I am A Woman" at some point during your life does not erase your male biology nor your male pattern behaviour.