Reconciling Trans and Feminism

[LonginesPrime]

I would consider myself to be gender critical but I respect transwomen's assertion that they feel they are women and I'm happy to respect their preferred pronouns.

As a feminist, it doesn't sit comfortably with me when transwomen say things like 'I knew I was female from a very young age as I always loved pink and played with my sister's dolls' and I personally believe that if society didn't place so much weight on gender conformity, especially when it comes to masculinity, lots of people who have transitioned probably would have been perfectly happy living their lives the way they wanted, wearing what they wanted without feeling the need to be recognised as someone of the opposite sex.

Similarly, from lesbians I know who have transitioned to male, I can absolutely see the appeal (whether on a conscious or subconscious level) of taking that step to be recognised as a man as opposed to a 'butch' woman in a society that undervalues women, and whilst I'm pleased for them and the ways their careers have advanced as a result of being perceived as male, it's disappointing to know that it does make a difference, especially when they're dressing exactly the same as they did before (i.e. in 'male' suits and waistcoats (I have some very dapper friends..)).

I have a lot of sympathy for the trans people who hate their bodies and feel they are confined by them. If someone feels they are a woman and wants to be treated as such more fool them, I have no problem washing my hands next to them in the loo or including them in the discussion at a book group. However, I don't think that male sex offenders who transition should be allowed in women's prisons and I don't believe that women attending a rape crisis centre should be forced to have anyone with a penis examine them if they're not comfortable with that.

It has taken a long time to even get to this point of reconciling my beliefs about gender and my support of the trans community and I can't claim to be completely there yet, but I'd be interested in hearing about other women's experiences of reconciling trans support with their own feminist views.

I say we judge people by their behaviour, not their gender

I would like no one to be judged, excluded, included, considered for anything on the basis of their gender. Gender is a meaningless, fluid, subjective, changeable, indefinable, social concept.

Look however the fuck you want more power to you. People are distinguishable on the basis of their sex, not what they prefer, feel, or present to the world.

I've experienced just about every type of male sex crime against me and reported none of them. And I count myself as educated, privileged, and reasonably articulate. The power dynamics in relationships of trust are complicated (and I think this is partly why I feel so bruised by this issue - trans women had the term, and social acceptance as "women", on trust). Also, I found some of the violations I have experienced easier to bear if I reframed them as something else. I don't enjoy being vulnerable.

I actually feel really insulted and actually angry when folk say “speak up then, scream at them, slap them, report them - if they do anything or break the law (plus this doesnt seem to get used for TW using male spaces) my husband says this when i try to speak about abuse, assault, harassment etc and metoo and how women stay silent - sometimes to protect those around them - especially the males in their lives. He just doesn’t get why we can’t just speak up - and he’s one of the good guys

I looked at the crime stats for Canada and it is not possible to say there Is evidence of absuse of the system. equally, there is no evidence that there is no abuse of the system either. My reading of the data is that you would need to wait around 10 years to be sure. The problem is partly the difficulty of getting accurate data, and also a problem of settling that against the general change in crime.

I think OP is close to my feelings also. Which means that some organisation should should be allowed to treat people differently based on natal sex. This is trading the rights of trans with the rights of women. this might mean that facilities need to be reconsidered.. where does a trans woman go if she has been subject to domestic violence?

I think gender stereotyping is not good.

"where does a trans woman go if she has been subject to domestic violence? "

The same place men go. There is also nothing stopping TRA setting up shelters for their community.

That's a good point, wandering and wobbles - I had thought that assaults would be reported in the normal way, but thinking about my own experience and that of people I know, the 'normal way' is just not to report.

And then you've got the added worry of being labelled a transphobe when no one believes you.

My biggest anger though is how women are being treated and dismissed by males - whether from self serving trans activists to the males in labour who now they have found a condoned and popular form of abuse - seem to be using the debate to put women in their place.

YY. Exactly this. It gives me the rage.

I would say that the answer is trans people set up their own spaces for abuse survivors etc, but then that's reliant on trans people all living in major metropolitan areas where there's enough trans folks for there to be separate support services. It would mean that you'd have no access to support if you were a trans person living in, say, a small village in Dorset. Then again, I suspect many trans people would choose not to stay in small-town settings anyway.

I say we judge people by their behaviour, not their gender (ie, trans woman in a women’s loo minding her own business, fine; trans woman in a women’s loo rubbing her crotch at you, report them as you would anyone doing that!)

Then there is no point in segregating toilets or other spaces by sex at all. We all know that not all men are a threat because NAMALT and we all know men who wouldn't dream of assaulting women in a toilet. Trans women are men. There is no difference other than what they say they feel about their gender. Nearly all of them have fully functioning male genitalia. Research has shown that they do not have a lower tendency to violence than 'cis-men'. Why do people generally agree that there should be sex segregation but then in same breath say it's fine for some men to be in the ladies toilets, because it would be unfair to suggest that they would assault women? Why don't we apply that to all men then? Statistically, most men are not sex offenders, so why not get changed with them and use the same bathrooms as them? Why not have them intimately examining rape victims and living in women's refuges? What is the big difference between a biological man and another biological man who says he feels like a woman.

where does a trans woman go if she has been subject to domestic violence?

Nothing to stop the opening of trans refuges at all. Also depends on the relationship and who the trans woman's partner is. Generally biological men do not tend to need refuge accommodation because a) they are not at risk of death or serious harm from a female partner, even if that female partner has been violent and b) they tend to have greater resources in order to be able to re-house. If the trans woman has been in a relationship with a man, there is statistically a greater physical threat, so a trans refuge may be an option.

I must say that I am seriously unconvinced that trans women are particularly likely to suffer intimate partner violence and be in need of refuge accommodation. Call me bigoted, but it doesn't make sense to me that biological males are at greater risk than women, especially when many trans women claim to be 'lesbians' and have relationships with females. While a woman may hit a man in a relationship, she is unlikely to make him fear for his life.

I agree... I think it is very sad that more time/space hasn't been spent looking at making space within "men" for every variety of presentation....

I am terrified for non-gender-conforming children growing up today....

And enormously sad that we are going to become more exclusive as a society (religious, cultural beliefs) under the umbrella of becoming more inclusive.....

I think it was Datun who posted on another thread about the clearly expressed need to weigh up the impact on all groups when measuring "inclusivity" and whether gender or sex segregation is appropriate under the 2010 act...

Honestly?

Its not about me reconciling feminism and trans rights. (I don't particularly regard myself as a feminist anyway)

From before DH was told my sibling was trans, he was labelled as transphobic. As in my sibling had already decided he was transphobic.

After we were told, it rapidly went down hill from there despite making every effort to accept.

My point is that reconciling by its nature means a consensus, mutual respect and compromise.

When you are never even given that opportunity then you can not reconcile anything.

On a personal level I can not reconcile for that reason. Thats not for want to. I am not allowed to.

I just am what I am, and my body is my reality. If my reality is disregarded as irrelevant or meaningless then my existence is only ever defined by someone else and not myself.

Therefore I have no right to reconcile. Not only that but I have no ability to reconcile.

It can not be a one way process or its coercive in some manner because that's not reconciliation thats being subduced.

The rigidity of belief that comes from TRAs makes it near to impossible to overcome that. Thats what no debate is really about. Power over women. Thats what is so alarming about it.

As a rule I do think feminists are willing to accept trans as trans but not to deny the reality of biology. Because thats about respect for the reality of women and their lived experience and what challenges that results in.

They don't want to take rights away nor see anyone suffering abuse. But there much be an acknowledgment of their own rights and how they are abused, precisely to prevent that abuse.

And thats what's missing. And thats what leaves women open to being abused because of the nature of trans activism, even if the abuse is carried out by a man who doesn't identify as trans in anyway.

The easy solution is 3 spaces and services; men, women and inclusive.

Problem solved.

But thats transphobic upstart.

where does a trans woman go if she has been subject to domestic violence?

You know, the women who ran the earliest refuges literally had to stand guard outside and put their own bodies between abusers and the women who they had abused inside the house. They had windows put in. The police weren't bothered. The newspapers slagged them off. Nobody gave a shit.

Those refuges were built with blood and guts.

If TIMs need refuges in anything like the same proportions as women do, which I highly doubt, perhaps they could stop screeching TERF at women for a solitary second and BUILD THEIR FUCKING OWN.

I seem to have swung all over the place in terms of the way I think in the past week or so, from Fairly Liberal to full-on Terf and back again. It's felt like a bit of a stressful journey, too much angst on both sides.

1. people need to talk to each other without getting upset
2. people need to respect each others' problems
3. people need to agree to differ where possible
4. people need to avoid exaggerating the problem in order to make a point

Impressed with the extensive research that demonstrates that self id has not caused any problems in other countries. Am looking forward to reading the in depth questionnaires/ interviews with women about how this has made them feel in terms of privacy dignity, access to public spaces. Assume those shouting about this, I am looking at you Owen Jones, will be able to produce this information. I assume that 6 months ago they could have produced similar evidence on there being no issues with sexual harassment in Hollywood.

We are at that point that always comes in compromise between men and women where tolerance has become submission.

Redtoothbrush, your last three sentences above resonate with me.

And I feel the same, Smiths - it's causing me a huge amount of stress as I really don't know how to engage on LGBT issues at the moment (which has effectively silenced me on all LGB issues too).

It just occurred to me that if sex is no longer a protected category in anti discrimination policies the laws forbidding sex specific abortion of girls will be void.

I actually feel really insulted and actually angry when folk say “speak up then, scream at them, slap them, report them - if they do anything or break the law (plus this doesnt seem to get used for TW using male spaces) my husband says this when i try to speak about abuse, assault, harassment etc and metoo and how women stay silent - sometimes to protect those around them - especially the males in their lives. He just doesn’t get why we can’t just speak up - and he’s one of the good guys

This. Completely this.

Thanks Flamingowings.

I'm a lesbian and a large majority of my friends are LGB (and some T).

I agree that the problem with the GirlGuiding issue is the denial of sex and the precedence that gender is taking, and agree that not being able to make an informed risk assessment as a result is extremely problematic.

Regarding the argument that lesbians are transphobic if they won't sleep with people with penises, I've always seen this as quite academic as, since dating is a matter of personal preference anyway and I've never personally found it to be an issue (as there's always another reason to turn someone down and it's not like you have to give them feedback!). In the past, transwomen have been fine with me when I've turned them down (and I've had the penis conversation with people over online dating many a time), but I appreciate that normal transwomen's attitudes might be influenced by the notion that 'penises can be female and therefore should be accepted by lesbians' going forward.

I don't feel particularly worried on a practical level about the prospect of being forced to sleep with someone with a penis. However, I've realised that I would be very worried nowadays about saying that I don't want to sleep with someone with a penis (despite having felt very comfortable saying this for years) for fear of being labelled a transphobe. I want to treat everyone with respect. I want equality. But I don't want a naked penis anywhere near me.

Plus, having been raped in the past, I feel that the graphic term 'cotton ceiling' feels like a direct rape threat and is the only phrase that has made me truly appreciate the effect of triggering.

I haven't been ostracised by my (LGBT) community, but that's only because I've felt the need to back away from it completely as I can't be myself there, so I've lost it anyway.

Bewilderness not just that but if you are unhappy with the sex of your baby, you can coercively trans them from birth.

No one can question whether the parents are being abusive in doing so, because 'transphobia'.

Her discussion on why she felt she was really a woman was all about not liiiiking the rough boys and liking butterflies. At the time I was a Spare Rib reader and thought it sad she had internalised sexual stereotypes and subjected herself to mutilating surgery rather than confronting them and being a gentle male.

This is where I was prior to the TRA escalation of the past 10 years or so - it's sad that some men are so mired in sexist stereotypes that they felt the need to try to make themselves into pretend women, but it's societal as well as personal and the solution is to fix society so that men can be gentle and women can be strong and assertive and everyone can have whatever interests and sartorial preferences they happen to have.

The influx of angry, aggressive men who hate women but claim to be women has destroyed whatever compromise existed between women and the men transitioning as an escape from masculine stereotypes that they just didn't feel able to adapt to, and the angry, aggressive misogynists are now using the group formerly known as transsexuals as both distractions and human shields in an attempt to divert attention away from their hostile takeover of women's spaces.