Reconciling Trans and Feminism

[LonginesPrime]

I would consider myself to be gender critical but I respect transwomen's assertion that they feel they are women and I'm happy to respect their preferred pronouns.

As a feminist, it doesn't sit comfortably with me when transwomen say things like 'I knew I was female from a very young age as I always loved pink and played with my sister's dolls' and I personally believe that if society didn't place so much weight on gender conformity, especially when it comes to masculinity, lots of people who have transitioned probably would have been perfectly happy living their lives the way they wanted, wearing what they wanted without feeling the need to be recognised as someone of the opposite sex.

Similarly, from lesbians I know who have transitioned to male, I can absolutely see the appeal (whether on a conscious or subconscious level) of taking that step to be recognised as a man as opposed to a 'butch' woman in a society that undervalues women, and whilst I'm pleased for them and the ways their careers have advanced as a result of being perceived as male, it's disappointing to know that it does make a difference, especially when they're dressing exactly the same as they did before (i.e. in 'male' suits and waistcoats (I have some very dapper friends..)).

I have a lot of sympathy for the trans people who hate their bodies and feel they are confined by them. If someone feels they are a woman and wants to be treated as such more fool them, I have no problem washing my hands next to them in the loo or including them in the discussion at a book group. However, I don't think that male sex offenders who transition should be allowed in women's prisons and I don't believe that women attending a rape crisis centre should be forced to have anyone with a penis examine them if they're not comfortable with that.

It has taken a long time to even get to this point of reconciling my beliefs about gender and my support of the trans community and I can't claim to be completely there yet, but I'd be interested in hearing about other women's experiences of reconciling trans support with their own feminist views.

The influx of angry, aggressive men who hate women but claim to be women has destroyed whatever compromise existed between women and the men transitioning as an escape from masculine stereotypes that they just didn't feel able to adapt to, and the angry, aggressive misogynists are now using the group formerly known as transsexuals as both distractions and human shields in an attempt to divert attention away from their hostile takeover of women's spaces.

Yes. This is where I am now. The population has completely changed and the contemporary political movement we know as "transgender rights" has absolutely nothing to do with those people, whose number is so tiny as to be insignificant. The tiny number and the lack of aggression is why they never caused a problem with women before - some women generally didn't mind and even the staunch radfems who disapproved could see this population was so tiny it wasn't worth spending time on.

I was thinking about this with regard to the thread about Miranda Yardley the other day. I think this original population would be best moving away from the word trans altogether because that definition now belongs to an entirely different kind of person - it belongs to misogynistic, disordered males and their MRA allies. Nothing to do with dysphoria.

I was thinking about this with regard to the thread about Miranda Yardley the other day. I think this original population would be best moving away from the word trans altogether

I actually used this slur as a method of distancing myself from the current ‘trans’ trend.

I am called it because I believe that I am not actually a woman, that to be ‘true trans’ you must have gender dysmorphia (not the current narrative where anyone must be believed to literally be the opposite sex - cross dressers, drag queens, any person who says so) and that trans rights should be seperate and not infringe upon women’s rights.

TruScum - it's such a tricky one.

On the one hand, we have a mass men's sexual rights movement comprising homophobes and misogynists using dysphoric people and children as human shields. Everyone knows this movement is called "trans", even if they only see the human shields and not the malice underneath. I have to say that I do wonder if Miranda is right that gradually disassociating oneself from the word "trans" is the best way forward for people who aren't cross-dressing MRAs.

Not saying I'm right or owt - just thinking aloud!

Interesting. Am following as I have questions around this area as well. Not from any experience level other than we had a TW in an office and she was allowed everywhere. In practice Id like to think I was equal minded, but why did her ideas trump mine? But then when it all kicked off in the US over toilets I felt sad that "good TW" were being treated horrifically which is when I thought I was being a bit NIMBY maybe and uneducated and needed to think about this.

Im curious about one poster who mentioned a gendered soul. Hadn't thought of that before. Curious concept. I don't know if I feel my soul is gendered. Never thought about it before. But Ive never questioned being straight either. I just....am. Need to think on that.

What makes one Male? In psychology terms? Why is the focus on are you female? Not why are you not male....? Why am I not male?

Am also interested by the discussion on that Scouts trip. Life is infinitely more complicated by. Will be watching, mainly as I don't feel remotely educated to engage much more past this post!

Flamingowings fascinating post. Lots to think about. Yes too much stuff around. Always feels like Im being diverted from "actual problems" by "created problems".

Thank you for posting the original comment OP.

I do think you are right LangCleg (and Miranda also)

I’m still trying to think about a word that would be an appropriate alternative! Language is very important right now imo.

Language is very important right now imo.

Yes, it is! It's one of my big bugbears about the social constructionist left generally. Every single word, term, concept, is used in direct opposition to its original meaning. Does my head in!

I try to think of how I would feel if I were you or Miranda. And I do not think I would want to be used as a human shield by these people.

I don't know if I feel my soul is gendered.

And this idea also presupposes that people have souls, which makes it problematic for many even before you come to the question of how souls work and whether they can be gendered.

Where I part company from some on the thread about Yardley is that I think we do need a word for the group of people with dysphoria who've made significant physical alterations to their bodies even though I agree that nobody can actually change sex. If transsexual doesn't work then let's fine a word that does, because we need some way to refer to that group of people that's distinct from the other groups of people calling themselves trans. We can't discuss what we can't name.

Im curious about one poster who mentioned a gendered soul. Hadn't thought of that before. Curious concept. I don't know if I feel my soul is gendered.

That was me, I think.

This is how I conceptualise an otherwise baffling anti-science movement. I've never seen such science denialism as I have in the transactivist movement outside of fundamentalist creationist Christian circles.

Biological sex is immutable. The only way you can believe you were born male but are literally a woman is if you consider yourself to have some ineffable essence that exists separate to your body. This is a religious belief called dualism. It means you believe that human beings have souls. And, in the religion of transgenderism, these souls are gendered.

Those of us who are not followers of the transgender religion maintain that there is nothing wrong with being a "feminine" man or a "masculine" woman because man and woman are simple biological classifications and human beings are an advanced species who should be free to express their personalities (not souls) in any way they wish.

Also, here's a funny thing. My DH has been momentarily mistaken for a woman before, but only by white people (never by other Asian people, even as a child or teenager). He's East Asian, often has long hair, has soft facial features for a man, doesn't have a macho personality or mannerisms. It's always been a momentary, at first glance thing though - they always do a double take and realize he's a man pretty quickly, usually before he gets a chance to speak, which would immediately remove any lingering doubt. This is why he's conscious of the racism involved in the way white people sometimes talk about khathoey and passing, and also part of why I'm so aware of the dynamics of how this stuff works in practice. Even when people aren't sure at first glance that's mostly scanning clothes/hairstyle/build, a closer look is usually enough to figure it out very quickly. Humans are really very good at this. I'd argue that women are better at it then men because it's more important to our safety to be able to immediately identify men than it is the other way around, but men are pretty good at it too, and in most cases where men say they didn't know a trans woman was male I think they're likely lying, possibly to themselves as much as others. The cases of butch women being hassled in bathrooms (which absolutely does happen) I suspect are as much about homophobic assholery as they are about genuine confusion, because again, even if the first glance might confuse a second one usually clears things up.

Thanks everyone for the very thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion.

Flamingowings, yes I agree with you and I completely agree that two distinct groups have emerged. Most of the people I know who are trans are the quiet types who just want to get on with their lives. I know one who's more vocal and a bit more political, but only tends to call out injustices they see personally.

I know from experience of my LBGT stuff how very easy it is to get a platform if you are happy to put your head above the parapet on LBGT issues and to be held up as the poster child for diversity. And because most transwomen want to align with women as opposed to being identified as trans for the rest of their lives, I find that it tends to be the voices who care more about being trans and less about being what they feel is their 'true' gender who end up speaking out on the topic. For most people attending a talk on trans inclusion at work, for example, this is one of their first (or one of very few) experiences of hearing a transwoman's views first hand and they have little reason to question what they're being told, as they're an outsider and feel they are there to learn.

I feel conflicted talking about a trans ideology as it makes it sound like a cult and I feel like I'm trivialising the experiences of my 'everyday trans' friends. If they've gone to such lengths to be who they feel they are (including surgery, losing families and generally turning their lives upside down), I don't think they would be able to accept that they'd bought into a flawed conception of gender. Plus, I saw a Christian conservative woman get flamed by a transwoman on a TV interview for calling it an ideology, so there's another thing no-one can question.

One of the other things that I struggle with as a gay person is the fact that the people who often seem to be talking more sense on trans issues are the people with conservative and/or religious views, who have also persecuted gay people and women for years. Someone mentioned upthread about the fear liberal, inclusive women have about being labelled bigots and I feel the same about aligning my views with those I've previously seen bigotry from on gay/women's issues. Each time I find myself agreeing with them, I do question my thinking and wonder if I'm on the wrong side of this (which I think is also what gives others the fuel to call feminists bigots over this).

The WEP/Heather thing really scared me too as, from what I've seen (which admittedly isn't necessarily the full story, although why the WEP wouldn't defend themselves if she's misrepresenting the issue is a mystery), she was saying something innocuous about letting kids wear what they want. My kids have always been taught that 'there's no such thing as girls' toys and boys' toys- they're just toys', but it's starting to feel like I'd be labelled a bigot for saying that nowadays.

I don't want people to think that by opposing the madness and silencing, I want to eradicate trans people, but I feel like that's what it sounds like when people criticise the ideology as where does it leave individual normal trans people? I completely agree that a new word needs to be coined to distinguish between everyday trans people going about their lives and TRAs who have their own agenda. However, I don't think it should be the everyday trans people who have to change their description because other people are causing havoc in their name (any more than biological women should be labelled 'cis') - the TRAs should be labelled with something that doesn't sound like they're doing trans people a favour, because they're really not.

I'm not at all happy to find myself in a position where I may have to actively campaign against Labour - my ancestors would spin in their graves! This issue makes for very uncomfortable alliances. The way I see it though, it's like agreeing about gravity existing, or the earth being round rather than flat - these are things that we may find ourselves agreeing on with people who we'd otherwise agree on almost nothing because they're things that are plainly and obviously true. The fact that lesbians don't have cocks, or that it's not a good idea to sterilize gender non-conforming children, or that all women's shortlists should only have women on them - these are all in that category of "well duh" things, and it's not our fault that parts of the left and the gay community have totally lost the plot over these issues.

I feel conflicted talking about a trans ideology as it makes it sound like a cult

That would be because it IS a cult, meeting virtually every criteria for the definition of one.

I have no hesitation in calling TRA out for what it is.

That is not to say all trans people belong to that cult. The fact that those who are trans and don't adhere to doctrine only reinforces the idea that it is a cult.

Go and look up 'how to identify a cult', and see how many boxes you can tick.

sorry

*The fact that those who are trans and don't adhere to doctrine are ostracised only reinforces the idea that it is a cult.

Just realized I should have posted my second last comment on the is mumsnet transphobic thread where someone was arguing that there are many people whose sex is impossible to determine at a glance. I know how to internet, honest...

What is the big difference between a biological man and another biological man who says he feels like a woman?

There literally is no difference. None at all. When will the world wake up I wonder?

(Angry Attack your DH sounds beautiful )

YY to the Trans and self ID movement being a cult.

It didn't look out of context tbh Angry

Possibly for the best, the TRA in the other thread would probably have tried to convince me that I've long been in a same sex marriage without knowing it. His hair was longer than mine a couple of years ago...

I am interested in understanding how any 'faction' of feminism can disagree with the following:
Requiring people to conform to expectations around gender/ according to gender is damaging and limiting to everybody.
There are key differences between males and female and that attention should be given to these differences in order to address issues relating to equality of opportunity.

I think the key 'factional' issues relate to:
Language - a war about the definition of woman and who has the right to call themselves a woman.
Sex- disagreement about when, where and how (if ever) you should differentiate services and spaces according to sex.

However, the above very rarely get debated in any meaningful way between those that disagree.

I don't disagree with that statement, MsBeaujangles.

Although it's the 'requiring' bit that I'd say is the difference. Setting aside what has been described on this thread (and elsewhere, obviously) as trans ideology for a moment, I see individual transwomen I meet as expressing themselves in the way they feel best fits them personally, and in the same way that I wouldn't expect them to tell me how to dress or behave, I accept and respect their choices and freedom.

I don't feel that those transwomen are requiring anyone else to conform to gender stereotypes and have had frank discussions with transwomen and transmen many times about how society's ideas about gender constrain women and they've agreed with me. As an aside, it's a shame because these people who've had experience of being perceived as a woman and then a man and vice versa can help a lot in highlighting gender bias, etc in the workplace to the benefit of women.

However, returning to trans ideology, I think the notion that anyone who plays with a pink toy must therefore be a girl on the inside is insane. I don't believe that trans people actually think that either.

However, I can see how it's difficult to cherry pick the bits of trans logic that work and leave behind the bits that don't make sense since the acceptance of trans people just getting on with their lives means it has to be decided how they will live their lives in respect of all the nitty gritty details that matter once people are getting on with life.

People can only ever rely on their own perception as it's all they will ever know, so a biological male saying they've always 'felt like a woman' makes little logical sense to me personally anyway. There are so many logical leaps I feel I'm having to make now in the name of supporting those suffering gender dysphoria that's it's reached an untenable point. Plus, I can't tell anyone as I'll look like a bigot. I do genuinely feel that this issue has adversely affected my career, my social life and my community involvement.

Sorry Prime - my 'requiring' refers to society/organisations/schools etc. having expectations/ requiring people to conform to notions of gender. All people should be able to choose to act/dress/ express themselves in feminine and/or masculine ways without being labelled for this. We have clothes for people, toys for people, human mannerisms etc. These should just be considered human traits.

I am a child and adolescent psychologist and work with gender non conforming and trans young people and their schools and families.
I consider myself an advocate for these YP and the people around them. I have yet to have anyone I work with think of me as being anti-trans, a bigot or a TERF despite the fact that I reject trans logic.

I'm intrigued, MrsB - how far do you accept or reject translogic, given that you accept that the young people you work with ARE trans?

(Not a trick question.)

I'm intrigued, MrsB - how far do you accept or reject translogic, given that you accept that the young people you work with ARE trans?

I don't really have an issue with this. I believe that there are trans people, as in there are people who have decided that for whatever reason that they want to live a life where they present as the opposite sex. However, I do not think they were born in the wrong body or that they actually are the opposite sex. They are their own biological sex but I have nothing against them having spaces reserved for themselves in which they can feel safe.