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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pilgrim Tucker, who spoke at the meeting last Tuesday, being stitched up on TV tomorrow?

326 replies

Datun · 04/03/2018 13:18

She has tweeted that she was invited to talk about self ID on the Victoria Derbyshire Show being aired tomorrow at 9am.

But she had no idea that the interviewer was a transactivist. They only told her afterwards.

How much longer is this bias going to be pushed by the BBC? Will a gender critical woman be invited to interview a transactivist.? You know, in the interests of ‘fairness’.

How are women supposed to counter the #nodebate when it is being rigorously upheld by the BBC?

I sincerely hope the programme is fair and balanced, despite my misgivings...

mobile.twitter.com/PilgrimTucker/status/969544468750880774

OP posts:
PositivelyPERF · 05/03/2018 10:53

Fuck off! “Who is more women?”

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2018 10:53

I have anxiety problems and there are countless books written by psychologists on the subject.

The point they make over and over again about those with mental health related issues, is that the rational part of their brains are not capable of overriding the emotional part, if they are in a state.

You have to have counselling first in order to be able to address this. You are vulnerable if your anxiety is over riding your rationality.

But there is also a catch here too.

The reason it works is because its based on an inability to accurately assess an actual risk. The counselling is about addressing that gap.

I've personally had a real issue, in that my anxiety isn't always totally irrational. Its sometimes based on real fears which can be backed up with experience, science and research. I've presented it to HCP and they have looked at it and said, that they can't argue with that, because that would be harmful in its own right to do that. If you ask me to go against an accurate risk assessment, you are creating an even bigger problem and you do me psychological harm because you remove my ability to make informed decisions to protect myself. You remove my ability to consent freely.

Acknowledging the reality of someone's situation and acknowledging the reality of their experience is part of the healing. Denying that is harmful.

This is where the experiences of trans people and women really differ. The reality of experience of a trans person might be that they perceive discrimination, but their reality is also related to the fact that they are male, whether they like it or not. The reality of experience of a women is they have experienced discrimination and violence based on their biology and their risk assessment isn't wildly out when its looked into properly.

This means that the needs of both can never be accommodated in a situation in which a person may be emotional distressed or they have issues related to mental health without there being a conflict which will harm one or both parties.

It is impossible.

We need to start acknowledging that.

As part of that we need to acknowledge the high rate of women in women's prisons who have mental health problems.
We need to acknowledge the percentage of women who have been sexually assaulted, abused, harassed or raped.

Anxiety / phobia is one thing. Its another when its ALSO backed up as having a foundation in reality. Its no longer irrational. It has a basis.

The potential psychological damage to women here, is deemed as based on nothing. That is categorically not true. Its a denial of male violence.

Anyone who stands up and tries to ignore that, is in denial of male violence. You have to ask why their agenda requires them to do that.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2018 10:55

I think the point was made stop calling us terfs by asking perfectly acceptable questions Rebecca root starting to back track a bit do you think?

Both of them were forced to back track during the debate.

SmurfOrTerf · 05/03/2018 10:56

What pisses me off is VD saying things like it has always been put forward that gay men are a risk to children, and gay people had all these battles. Well I am 10 years older than her and I have never heard that - ever.
When I was at school a girl came out, she got 100% support. AS has every GLB person I have ever met. They have never been discriminated for it, and I have not met a single person who opposed gay marriage.

OrderOnline · 05/03/2018 10:57

Acknowledging the reality of someone's situation and acknowledging the reality of their experience is part of the healing. Denying that is harmful.

Miranda seems to have benefited. Smile Lies are cruel, TRAs abuse TIM's.

OrderOnline · 05/03/2018 11:00

Anyone who stands up and tries to ignore that, is in denial of male violence. You have to ask why their agenda requires them to do that.

TRAs lie to TIMS, they are abusers, of TIMs and women in my opinion.

LizzieSiddal · 05/03/2018 11:02

The two transwoman look really confused to me, like they hadn't really considered it firm a women’s point of view before

I thought this too. But they’ve lived a life of male privilege, they’ve never had to in the past, so why start now?

OrderOnline · 05/03/2018 11:02

TRAs are the con artists in The Emperor New cloths, debate allows the Emperor to walk in a parade (which is why it was blocked) and a child to say what everyone else will not.

loveyouradvice · 05/03/2018 11:12

how do I watch this? Have just gone on to iplayer and only has 2.3.18 as most recent....thanks!

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2018 11:15

loveyouradvice, wait an hour or so.

loveyouradvice · 05/03/2018 11:18

thanks

SecondRow · 05/03/2018 11:41

twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/970613467819339776

Link to debate via twitter, @swivelchair works from abroad too where iplayer doesn't.

SecondRow · 05/03/2018 11:44

Oh sorry there's a series of clips from the debate linked on there, but not the whole thing. Hope it makes it to youtube later on.

swivelchair · 05/03/2018 11:45

Wow - awesome - thanks - yes - I can see that, and the film it links to Thanks again!

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 05/03/2018 12:04

Very well played DrW, Sarah Ditum, Emma Flowers Flowers Flowers

VaguelyAware · 05/03/2018 12:32

I think I'm sort of happy with that. I didn't see the last few minutes though. Agree with PPs about the transwomen looking a bit confused & on the back foot, even - they're used to just being able to keep repeating the "transwomen are women" mantra & then shout transphobia or block people if anyone disagrees. This was a proper debate & they were talking to someone who had actual facts & legitimate questions, & didn't fit the transphobic stereotype of a screaming harpy.

If only all discussions on gender took place in front of a TV camera. I bet we'd see some more respectful dialogue, instead of bashing grandmothers in the face.

2rebecca · 05/03/2018 12:37

I think the pink haired guy chould have been challenged when he said you shouldn't have to look like a woman to be accepted as a woman. If you don't look like a woman, have male chromosomes and male genitalia then in what way are you a woman? It's back to the girlie brain thing again.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2018 13:25

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09txbz7/victoria-derbyshire-05032018

Whole show now up.

loveyouradvice · 05/03/2018 13:30

felt like a really great start.... Nic and Sarah superb ... and appropriate around caring about trans people BUT women's rights need to be protected.... hoping this might just mean we have more of this sort of thing in the rest of the media....

Datun · 05/03/2018 13:51

Wow!

That's the first time I have ever seen such an open debate.

And the arguments are what now?

My mum has a hysterectomy.

Gay men.

What if a woman looks butch?

Yay, fake suicide statistics support our argument.

Their arsenal entirely empty.

Nick and Sarah were brilliant.
But the most compelling argument, is the objections to them!

Hysterectomies. Ffs.

OP posts:
2rebecca · 05/03/2018 13:54

I do think it's a start, and I do think most men identifying as women now wanting to keep their penises and often not even take hormones so in what way are they trying to be female should be stressed. And what being female means if you aren't a woman other than taking women's places in sports and women only spaces.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2018 13:54

The video before hand was dodgy. But the debate was good.

Seeing as there is 'no debate', does this now technically classify the BBC as Terftastic - like MN - for facilitating any sort of debate?

ScarletBegonias · 05/03/2018 14:34

I happened to be watching the BBC News channel just before 2 o' clock and they had a piece on this programme - introduced as dealing with a 'major controversy' or words to that effect. They then showed a reasonably lengthy extract from the discussion in which (as others have said) the two transwomen looked rather uncomfortable and seemed generally unconvincing. Coupled with the fact that we had just got our mains water supply back, this has made my day!

Elendon · 05/03/2018 14:58

Yes to the hysterectomies. Shocking. How did Root get to be a person? Via a uterus inside their mother. Basic biology denied.

Root also looked terribly confused about the fact that self id means no need for hormones or any surgery. 'Do you know what hormone treatment does to a man?' Men who have prostate cancer do sometimes have to go through hormone treatment that can feminise them. It's distressing.

holycheeseplant · 05/03/2018 14:59

Well done Pilgrim, Sarah and Nic. Not an easy thing to do and we applaud you, definitely a refreshing change.

Over to you Woman’s hour et al.

Perhaps the moral maze should try again?

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