Let's Talk about White Feminism

[MagnificentDelurker]

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

IfNot nope a black woman in the U.K. will experience issue linked to fact she is a woman (like any other woman) AND the discrimination linked to the fact she is also black
Yes. I think that's basically what I said! Or at least it's what I meant.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though. That way of thinking suggests that there is a hierarchy to the discrimination or oppression or whatever that the WOC often faces and therefore opens the door to having her experience devalued because her argument/struggle/standpoint etc as a WOC is seen as less significant than her experience as simply woman.

Er. ..no. I'm not saying there's a hierarchy. I'm saying racism is racism and misogyny is misogyny. Obviously you can experience both simultaneously but i don't see how recognising that feminism is primarily about women in general is automatically making racism less significant.

nope a black woman in the U.K. will experience issue linked to fact she is a woman (like any other woman) AND the discrimination linked to the fact she is also black.
Yes that is what she said.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though For goodness sakes, she means as well as. She isn't saying that sexism is more 'above' or 'below' racism.

1
+
1

is also

1+1

There was a huge kerfluffled called elevatorgate a few years ago when a blogger at Skepchick explained that she had given a talk, socialized in the bar, was followed into the elevator at 4am and invited for coffee by a man who had watched her all the night but not joined in the conversation. A conference creep. She said "Guys, don't do that".
Thousands of comments from deeply offended nice guys later Richard Dawkins wrote a post called "Dear Muslima" which basically said that this white feminist had no right to complain because women were suffering in the Middle East.
I bring this up because I saw use of this accusation by white men spread from there. 2011 to now, this "white feminism" meme has spread until white men use it every day against feminists regardless of our race creed or color.
That is completely different from when WOC speak of white Feminism. The Feminist movement has a history of fragmentation and dispute as mentioned upthread.
I am so old I remember organizing by phone tree. I love the interwebs.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though For goodness sakes, she means as well as. She isn't saying that sexism is more 'above' or 'below' racism.

But that isn't what she said. She didn't say as well as, she said on top of. Thanks for the completely redundant maths lesson though

Er. ..no. I'm not saying there's a hierarchy. I'm saying racism is racism and misogyny is misogyny. Obviously you can experience both simultaneously but i don't see how recognising that feminism is primarily about women in general is automatically making racism less significant.

No you didn't say there is a hierarchy, I just felt that you saying on top of give the connotation that the two prejudices are separate but the reality for a lot of WOC is that the two are not, that's all. Recognising that feminism is specifically about women doesn't devalue racism, I'm just pointing out that for a lot of WOC those prejudices are experienced simultaneously due to the construct of her identity or in an entirely different subsection, again due to the construct of her identity which is why I picked up on the term on top of

But that isn't what she said. She didn't say as well as, she said on top of. Thanks for the completely redundant maths lesson though

As on 'on top of having to do the laundry I also have to do the packed lunches'. This does not mean, that the laundry is balanced ON TOP OF the packed lunches, it means the laundry needs doing AS WELL AS the packed lunches. I mean, talk about splitting hairs for no apparent reason.

Talk about being snarky for no apparent reason.

What exactly is your problem tells? You've been rude, disrespectful and patronising for no damn reason all over this thread. You're making yourself look incredibly juvenile.
ifnot posted her opinion on the subject matter, I responded to the point that she made. The last time I checked, that's how an online forum worked. At no point did I dismiss her opinion or tell her she was wrong for having it, I simply responded with my perspective on her choice of words as I'm perfectly free to do. I responded because I'm interested in her opinion and her thought process behind her commentary and sometimes it's ok to challenge or offer a counter view point. If you don't like what I'm saying then that's fine, challenge all you want but stop being so blood patronising and touchy just because people are offering varying perspectives and varying opinions and not accepting that your POV is one size fits all. The nature of the thread lends itself to people expressing their varying views, experiences and perspectives regarding Feminism. It might benefit you to think about why you're so triggered by the subject matter that you can't engage in the conversation without being so antagonisitic.

I responded to the point that she made

And I responded to your point. Its how these things work. My perspective is that saying 'on top of' is the same as saying 'as well as'. Are you saying that your perspective is more important than mine?

No, I'm saying you can make your point without responding to me as if I'm stupid. You could have made your point regarding your interpretation of ifnots wording without the 1+1 bullshit. You could have further clarified your interpretation without insinuating that my opinion was baseless because I was splitting hairs for no reason

Not a single thing I posted stated that your perspective was less important, what I took objection to was your approach but I can see you've decided to go from being rude and patronising to being deliberately obtuse. You have your perspective, I have mine. You chose to express yours your way, I express mine differently. With that in mind, I didn't comment on this thread to argue with anyone or derail the conversation so I'll leave it there. I'm more interested in the topic at hand.

thebewilderness I wasn't aware of the elevatorgate thing as an origin for the use of the "white feminism" meme - thank you!

What seems rude to you, Dora, may just being trying to be very very clear because of the ease of misunderstandings when writing comments on forums. You keep telling her off and she keeps saying it is a misunderstanding. Then you tell her off again.

Pragmatically speaking (as a white feminist) thebewilderness nailed it for me.

If a woman of colour tells me I am failing to understand something important about intersectional feminism due to white privilege then I will listen and do my best to learn.

If a white man tells me the same thing then unless he's extremely persuasive I will assume he's attempting to shame me into silence in order to protect his own white male privilege and he can fottfsof

Well that kicked off...yes Tells That's how I meant it. One top of/as well as-thank you!
And Dora do you know that I'm white? Or are you just assuming and explaining racism to me?

where I have links my FB would become full of what about women in Saudi Arabia. As if women have to shut up as long as they are better off than women in S.A.
This is why you got some snarky responses magnificent. A while ago we had one of those guys persistently visiting the board and the MO was to start an "innocent" thread with...I've been lurking, you're great....and then to over time degenerate into extreme goady fuckery.

We have also had a few.... interesting.... opinions on white feminism threads before.

I'm glad you posted though.

With respect to the hijab, a p.p. is right that it isn't that long ago that western women had to be covered, wear a hat while out and the sight of an ankle was risque. In fact I read that raising hems above ankles was a direct result of the women's march in 1915. Women shortened their skirts to avoid mud on the march and it became a trend.

Women were also expected to cover their heads in church until very recently, for all I know they might still be in some churches.

So, our history as women of being expected to be covered, to have standards of dress imposed externally, are more similar across cultures than different I think.

Thanks all for contributions. Apologies if inadvertently triggered accusations. That was not my intention. My intention was not even to talk about specific experiences of minorities. Just a statement of support in spite of possible disagreements. The examples given in my OP, are always started by powerful men. Political battles being fought over bodies of women by men in power. One side demanding full coverage, the other side almost nakedness. Many of us see this. Obviously the feminists are not the main perpetrators. I certainly did not want to imply this.

Expanding on the points that might’ve been triggering ( with deep breath):

No one is immune to prejudice. How can we? Who has time or energy to learn about specific experiences of 7 billion humans, even if we bunch people together to races and sexes and economic backgrounds. Still quite a lot to keep track of. I come from Middle East and I have stereo typical views of many countries in ME. It is the part of my brain, I fill with news items and movies I have seen. But if I meet a woman from these countries, I will give myself a nudge. Push my prejudice aside and will listen. Not necessarily to agree but just to add a bit more detail and colour to the vague picture I had built up.

Posted a bit earlier than I intended but maybe that’s a sign that I need some sleep.

Good night

Wouldnt argue with that magnificent

The first post

Not the good night one

Though i wouldn't argue with that one either

Women of colour face racism, working class women often face poverty, but these are ON TOP of sexism and misogyny.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though.

I think the way of thinking about this that makes sense to me is to think about older women by analogy. They experience ageism and sexism, but the nature of the ageism that they face can be different from older men and the nature of the sexism that they face can be different from younger women. For example, a younger women might be called a “slut” or some other sexual term when someone wants to demean her, whereas an older woman might be more likely to be called “a stupid old cow” as a go-to insult. If you wanted to campaign against sexist insults it would be best to think about the full range of insults a woman will experience throughout her life.

There are also times when looking at things through a single “ism” (for want of a better word) is ineffective. For example, there are barely any older women presenting the news, but broadcasters can point to older men and young women and claim not to have any problems with ageism and sexism.

Whilst I can’t claim to fully understand the experiences of women of colour, as I am not one and unfortunately don’t know many, I am always interested to listen and learn about others experiences. I am, however, thoroughly sick of:

• brocialists using the term “white feminism” as a put down,
• people telling feminists that they shouldn’t focus on women’s issues,
• people using “intersectionalism” to mean “you have to agree with me and support whomever I have decided is being oppressed” and
• Munro Bergdorf who, not being a woman of colour, is in no better position to lecture on this subject than I am as a white woman.

So I should just put up and shut up with Tells responding to me as if I'm thick simply because I offered a different perspective on another posters opinion? She's allowed to be rude and patronising but I'm not allowed to express that I don't appreciate it? Ok then.

Ifnot Nah, not at all. Just feels like you're damned if you do and damn if you dont as far as responding to threads on MN is concerned. Even when you're perfectly reasonable and measurable in your response, sombody has to respond with snark. Was just saying that in my experience based on where I live (not in the uk) and who I have around me, WOC don't generally have the luxury of dealing with the two entities separately because the experience of womanhood is directly wrapped up in race for them which essentially is what your point was. I was just saying that I have often heard variations of the wording you used to deny that the correlation for WOC of colour exists and they are told that their issue is either a race issue or a womanhood issue and when they have tried to express that their experience of oppression as far as being a woman is concerned is different, that perspective has been invalidated because often people who haven't had to be faced with race issues haven't understood that.
I wasn't disputing your post and I was offended by it, was quite happy to have you clarify what you meant by it. Just don't appreciate being snarled at because I dared to speak on something I'd observed.

So I should just put up and shut up with Tells responding to me as if I'm thick simply because I offered a different perspective on another posters opinion? She's allowed to be rude and patronising but I'm not allowed to express that I don't appreciate it? Ok then.
No, indeed. By all means make a few more posts repeating how hard done by you are over a misunderstanding. Someone might have missed it.

So I should just put up and shut up with Tells responding to me as if I'm thick simply because I offered a different perspective

Sigh. I was explaining how she meant it. Because you seemed to think it was a literal criticism explanation of the hierarchy of oppression and took great offence. When it meant 'as well as'. Simples.

I thought your post was very interesting OP. To be frank, I've got somewhat bored with FWR in the last month or so because I've felt that instead of being a place where ideas are explored it has become a place where solidarity is frequently enforced and dissenters and those who ask questions that might trigger dissent are often shut down. I think many are feeling marginalised and threatened and there is a sense that we need to build a 'tribe' in a haven against a heartless world.

So, having said all that I take the point that feminism originated in the Western, developed, nominally Christian world and I agree that some of its core precepts reflect these origins. However, I don't understand what makes it 'white' as such. I was wondering if you could explain your choice of this term OP?

@MagnificentDelurker

Thanks for writing this. I've been lurking here since around early January when other women suggested my #peaktransing education may be furthered from reading comments here.

I didn't find your OP incoherent but I'm of Angolan born and Portugal raised so I instinctively knew exactly what you meant...

If I had written it I may have replaced white feminism with "some white feminists" instead. This is because I was already aware of the use of the expression "white feminism" usually by men to silence women.

Mary Beard's comments on the Oxfam scandal sprang to my mind as I continued to read your rant and Hillary Clinton's and Stella Creasy's were the faces I pictured when you alluded to western wars (of "liberation" ).

Above all, your rant reminded me of the whole tradition and legacy of feminisms of women of colour from around the world which too often go ignored, unacknowledged and not consulted when defining policy despite their huge contribution to a lot of women's lives.

I found hard to read the first reactions but I wasn't surprised to see them (I guess that goes with not being white). Nevertheless, I re-read your opening post twice to check my own bias... and as I did, I remembered that the Combahee River Collective, which celebrated 40 years last year since their mission statement was published, was a black lesbian women's response to their struggles not being addressed and their commitment to addressing the difficulties of people oppressed simultaneously by race, class and sex precisely because their voices were dismissed. In their statement they said: "It was our experience and disillusionment within these liberation movements, as well as experience on the periphery of the white male left, that led to the need to develop a politics that was anti-racist, unlike those of white women, and anti-sexist, unlike those of Black and white men.".

I remembered , by a black woman who was born in the 1790s, when I read your surprise at being suspected of being a man.

I attended my first Woman's Place meeting two nights ago and this is the first time I'm posting. I'll piggyback on your thread to add my thanks to Mumsnet feminists for helping me dissect and analyse something I wasn't even aware was happening in until, in mid December, a friend gave me the jolt I needed to start digging. Oh and Rebecca Reilly-Cooper. By the time I got here I'd already become as exasperated as to get a t-shirt printed "TERF and f...ing proud" but I've never actually done it (too chicken). However I was especially glad to see Mumsnet's support of the Labour AWS crowdfund.

I've also thought of dyeing my white trousers crotch area with a blood red and wear them to this month's march instead (suggestions on what brand dye and colour reference more than welcome). As a peaceful response to gross distortions of Crenshaw's intersectionality, I think they may well be what the W.I.T.C.H ordered.

Thanks for delurking mocha and what a lovely post
Trousers idea is great. I'd be tempted to let a red or burgundy felt tip bleed into the crotch of the trousers for a few hours