Let's Talk about White Feminism

[MagnificentDelurker]

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

For me, it's about realising that "white" feminism may have different priorities. If WOC feminism is to be taken seriously, then white feminists with power and influence should be sharing that by inviting, supporting, mentoring WOC to also take the stage to make their own cases for what they need. This is important especially given POC communities may face structural inequalities that some white feminists may not. I agree it does get used to shut people up, but in an ideal world it would be about having more voices.

Alittle

Will reply to your post in detail but what do you think my religion is? You made an assumption about my beliefs just because I stated I come from a Muslim country? And how did I mass you with Hollywood? I used that example as it was safely far from ordinary women’s experience (haggling over exactly how many millions they should be paid). An issue I don’t really care in one level but in another level that challenge if won can benefit other women as well.

You have read too much into my post.

I don't think the op is about identity politics. OP is saying that our shared class interests as women are central to feminism. She is expressing solidarity with white feminists despite the fact that our class interests diverge along other axes of oppression. I find this both coherent and magnanimous.

I can only assume that pps have taken umbrage at the very mention of racism given that OP accused no-one here. Some of the responses remind me of the NAMALTing that arises when we try to explain male privilege to men.

Must admit I'm not getting the reason for the snarky responses either. I'm surprised, given that the posters it's coming from usually seem to be making reasonable points.

Anyone like to explain?

Great to see you've come back Magnificent. I'll look forward to reading your after work posts.

@TallulahWaitingInTheRain "Some of the responses remind me of the NAMALTing that arises when we try to explain male privilege to men."

I agree! I'm finding this thread really eye-opening and have completely lost respect for at least one regular poster who I previously thought was pretty sensible.

And for all of you saying things like "I resent being told I can't have an opinion on the hijab", she is NOT saying that. Clearly, people who have direct experience of certain things will have better-informed opinions on them. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion yourself, just that you should acknowledge the limitations of your own experience and not talk over people who are better placed to understand certain issues. It's exactly the same thing we say to men: they are certainly "allowed" to have opinions on feminism, but hopefully we all agree that women's opinions will be more valuable here.

Also note that OP never said she thought the hijab was feminist, as far as I can see. In fact she has said she doesn't wear it herself. Some of you are just reading the word "Muslim" and jumping to conclusions that say far more about you than they do about the OP.

Fair enough I may have misinterpreted as I'm reading when breastfeeding and tending a fretful baby, and musing when doing housework. But I do feel some of my points stand. There is no "white feminism", or there wasn't in my active days. Women identified by ideology. This racial boundary stuff is bullshit and i've seen too many narcissists capitalising on their entitlement to speak over others, and telling Jewish women they have white privilege etc.

Someone using the phrase identity politics in a discussion about race is a very easy way to find someone who’s never had to consider the effect of race on their life. We lived in a racialised society. The fact many white people in the UK do not have to consider what their whiteness means does not mean they are not constantly engaged in that society, nor that their whiteness is a part of their identity or their politics. That doesn’t mean racism at all (although sometimes it can) - just that the experience of being white, black, Asian etc is important to our lives. I have been repeatedly asked ‘what are you?’ and my experience as a mixed Sephardi Jewish woman who is not identified as white by most people (various people have asked if I’m middle eastern, Arab, North African, Turkish, Roma and once Iranian) has had an important impact on my feminism.

For example, I have seen some discussions of the Bible and sexism in the Bible coming from a purely Christian centric viewpoint. I have seen some people who dismiss intersectionality. I have seen some people talk about clothing choices, notions of modesty etc without understanding the cultural place of modesty for men and women, or without casting a critical eye over their own understanding of modesty (which for most women exists in the U.K).

Racism affects women in a number of women specific ways. Some women may be sexualised/fetishised as a result. Others may have little representation which is not addressed - for example, it is important that there are black women role models in STEM, not just women and not just black men.

The priorities may also be different. I am in a disadvantaged area but with a lot of immigrants and diversity. Things like trans stuff is simply not a priority where I am but that depends on the area and community. Some people are transphobic for religious reasons. But most people I know are outwardly accepting. I would suggest that perhaps many women from the white middle class have not had to critically question their identity to the same degree as poc.

I’ve seen a lot of radical feminists talking about breaking out of the system, women’s liberation etc which I support. However often people may only understand the system and patriarchy from their POV as white middle class feminists.

I thought that was the OP's point, though! Too many people dismissing the views of 'white feminists' as if their whiteness makes their other views irrelevant, whereas I thought the OP was saying that white women's efforts can pave the way for all women, even if some of them 'transgress' (weird word) in other ways.

I think a few of the phrases OP has used have lit the blue touch paper, so to speak, and distracted people from what she is actually saying. People have read into her post things which I do not think are there.

Of course we each have our own blind spots, as a result of our own privilege. The intelligent, the attractive, the healthy- we all make assumptions and are inclined to overlook our own prejudice.

I'm also baffled by the strength of the negative responses such as saying the OP is a man and repeatedly telling them to fuck off.

I realise the "white feminism" is used as a stick to beat women, but I'm not convinced at all that the OP was using it that way. To me it looks like they were saying that if we acknowledge this used term exists, we can see positives in it.

I'm also bemused that we should never say that a feminist can be a racist. All types of people can be racists.

With that said feminism is above all something for women. It has to include all women for that to be the case. But I have seen largely enormous amounts of solidarity and I think feminists are often trailblazers of inclusion. Discussions of class, race, ethnicity etc are central to women’s lives and thus to their feminism and I do wish people would recognise that kust because they haven’t had to confront their race doesn’t mean they aren’t influenced by it significantly. White feminism shouldn’t be a pejorative at all, but the term is important because if you are white your feminism is influenced by that. My experience of feminism has been affected by a number of things such as culture, religion, geography, being raised in a loving and supportive home, etc and all of that is important to the acknowledge. My POV as a woc from London in a progressive family is different to that of a white woman in Preston, or in Belfast etc and I don’t have a full understanding of their needs, priorities and experiences as women either. I love thztbzt lectures and in books I have read I can learn about the many different experiences of being women and feminism, but acknowledging how race influences those different experiences is important.

I’m completely prepared to accept that I’m unconsciously prejudiced. Isn’t that a large part of what ‘privilege’ is? I probably wouldn’t have seen it without looking at feminism more closely though, in particular how men don’t fully get it, because they don’t fully live it.

I’ll admit to reading the first few posts repeatedly too - struggling to understand why pp I normally completely agree with reacted as they did. I’m still wondering if I missed something because I don’t get it.

If any are around and would like to explain, I’d love to know.

I understand that if you are white then that has influenced your feminism. However I reject a 'white feminism' because white is the default in the West, and therefore there is no distinct 'white feminism' because feminist camapigns have long included women of all backgrounds. Has anyone said 'my feminism is for the white people'? If they did I would regard them as white supremacists.

So I see the term as a clear pejorative. There is no doctrine of white feminism. There are feminists who are white for whom being white has formed their views.

I also recently really struggled with the 'check your privilege' thing when exposed to it by babywearing automatons. I really tried hard to understand it, and understand why all these (white) women were making emotional public statements handwringing about how they had just realised their privilege. It was kind of ghastly. Especially when I realised it was, oh that. The idea that white people have benefited from dispossession. Well, I've been aware of that and being an activist over it since I became an adult. My thesis was based on the concept. It's just using a different language, and using it in a nasty cultish way that divides women.

Ok, I think I probably overreacted and for that I apoloogise.

I still struggle with the point the OP is making but my interpretation of it wasn't right.

The whole white feminism issue is a sentitive one for me, and tbh, it has been brought up by more than one GF MRA types who troll these boards late at night.

Sorry OP. It was late and I got it wrong

@Palavra your posts have been really great!

What if white feminists start identifying as feminists of colour?

Phew.

But I have to say, all this reasonable apology stuff is probably why the MRAs and TRAs are making more headway than women. It's much easier to fit 'You Are Wrong End Of' statements on a t-shirt.

@TellsEveryoneRealFacts - "What if white feminists start identifying as feminists of colour?"

????

I think "White Feminism" as a phrase also has a specific US centric context (or at least it did when it was coined) that isn't reflected at all in how it is used by the SJWs. It refers to specific events such as some white American suffragettes refusing to support the 15th amendment giving black men the vote because they were instead pushing a different amendment giving universal suffrage. Or the questionable eugenics beliefs of Sanger. Or the marginalisation of Black womens concerns during the second wave that led to the womanist movement (a concept that has been utterly overshadowed by intersectionality but is IMO incredibly useful moving away from the concepts of axis of oppression and instead viewing feminism as being intrinsically linked to a woman's wider cultural experiences and vice versa)

The context in Britain was and is different. There wasn't the same history of domestic slavery or the same stratified social divides that grew out of that. The history of racism in the U.K. is a history of colonialism and it has a different, though still harmful, narrative that requires different analysis.

As usual though these issues are hugely complex and can't be reduced to woke sound bites. Undoubtedly white feminists were and are racist both consciously and unconsciously but it doesn't mean that all they did should be discounted. Not every person is 100% good or bad. Sanger thought that poor people reducing the number of children they had would ultimately improve the fitness of the human race. She also thought that the best way to do this was to give women control of their bodies and their fertility and she devoted her life to this.

We are all a product of our time and our culture. We can't escape it, the way we have been brought up is the way we will always default to seeing the world. All we can do is try to do our best to leave the world around us a little bit better, or at least not worse, than it was when we got here.

????

Yesterday, a black transwoman was called in to be the Labour Party's new Equalities advisor. A person, born a man, who called all white people racist. And who also produced an article, again yesterday, telling women how they are doing feminism all wrong.

Women are attacked at all angles, by all sorts of people with agendas.

Interestingly, it's fine to say that majority people can't speak for minority people, but not that minority people can't speak for majorities. So a black TIM can speak on all things LGBT, but a white middle class woman can't possibly speak for anyone else, because privilege.

Simplistic and rough, I know, but that's what it looks like sometimes.

Speaking only for myself, firstly I agreed with the OP that her OP lacked coherence.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women.

Particularly the last bit about white feminism/white women (and it’s not clear here whether the OP meant one or other, or was conflating them) transgressing when advocating to invade a country to free the women. I’d agree that the freedom of women may have been talked about in the lead up to the invasion of Afghanistan, for example, and used as some sort of secondary (and spurious) justification, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say anybody, never mind white feminists, advocated an invasion ‘to free the women’.

Secondly, while it’s not my business to defend the OP, I said telling her to FO was uncalled for.

Thirdly, I don’t think I’ve transgressed too badly on this thread, and not enough to warrant another poster saying they’d like to hear less from me. But she is, of course, entitled to her feelings.

Or he is entitled to his feelings. Or they/their.