Let's Talk about White Feminism

[MagnificentDelurker]

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

Woman

I have no idea either. Apparently I might be a man. Although mumsnet ads have now marked me as a Muslim woman and are advertising beautiful scarves to me

Maybe I'm really naive but I believe a woman wrote it

I don't see what has caused AssignedPurrfect to decide the poster is a man.

OP has essentially written a defense of so-called 'white feminism', as a response to the silencing, belittling bullshit that gets thrown at white women (or gender critical women, because somehow the TRAs have appropriated the concept of intersectionality) . Within her defense of 'white feminism' she very reasonably acknowledges that racism is a real problem in feminism, in as much as it is in society in general.

What exactly is your problem., Assigned and hipster. What have you taken such great offense to?

I think when different people think "white feminism" it means different things.
I call the mostly white women who have parlayed their sex positive feminism into a job with a news organization commercial feminists.

The MRAs mean to use the idea as a divide and conquer strategy just as the transgender advocates are now doing.
Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women. All women. Even the ones who do not like us very much.

None of us come to feminism as a result of our skin colour, we come to it as a result of the way we are treated in male society and that differs based on the male society around us. We then learn more about other women's experiences as we look beyond our immediate environment and learn, we may land on the right or the wrong side of the debate, but the debate moves and shifts so we can all get caught out occasionally as we learn. The world is not a monoculture. But it is two sexes. One male and one female. Feminism is about females. That is not annoying.

Can you give some examples of where you feel feminists have been racist, op? I don't really remember any specific 'free the women' rhetoric about any recent operations (Afghanistan included) - there was much more focus on drugs and the potential of WMD. I'm interested in how you perceive white feminism. (The majority of feminists I know try very hard to be exactly the opposite, with intersectionality practically mandatory without being burned at the stake, so it would be useful to know how 'we' (speaking as a white feminist) are getting it so wrong.

Hipster, I'd fight for ya. Whether you wanted me to or not. Which is apparently the problem Is it an infantilisation thing op? Is that what irks you?

I do see the conundrum. White feminists are literally condemned when they are not intersectional concerning race. And yet I absolutely see the desire to say 'you don't speak for me, shut up. I can speak for myself.' As someone up thread said, as a white feminist, you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It's a real tactic that is absolutely used to shut white feminists up (for both fighting on behalf of all women, and for not doing so).

Any ideas how a feminist who happens to be white can fix that, op? In terms of activism, it's a real problem to be told you must speak, and equally vehemently, that you may not speak at all.

Fwiw, I think the issues of advocacy with good intentions in this regard are not limited to race. It would be interesting to know where the line between unconditional support ends and unwanted advocacy begins. It might shut up some of the critics who just want white women to know their place (seen, preferably in something skimpy if you are under 25, and not heard).

I think there are specific areas in which rad fem ideals and intersectionality can come into conflict and I think that feminists of all colours and backgrounds can do more to listen to each other's points of view even if they disagree. There can be a strain of cultural imperialism in how those in the 'west' view the developing world and we have to be alert to that.

The hijab issue is one. I follow a rad fem analysis of the hijab and therefore in an ideal world Muslim women would choose not to wear it. However I would strongly oppose any legal enforcement of this, as has happened in France for example, as I don't feel that it is in the best interests of women and girls and At the end of the day it is just another way of policing what women wear,do and think.

FGM is another issue that I think where the wrong approach and not understanding cultural issues can cause more harm. If you look at the history of British rule in Kenya after FGM was abolished by the British it became seen as a symbol of resistance to colonial control and girls started operating on each other. Obviously FGM is abhorrent and should be abolished but an inappropriate approach from outsiders to a marginalised group can have the opposite affect and retrench the behaviour as part of the culture.

Current local led efforts in different parts of Africa have focused on peer education, introducing ritual ceremonies to replace cutting and retraining traditional practitioners in other skills so they will not lose their livelihoods. Solutions that grow from within communities are likely to be more effective long term.

White feminists have the power to bring global attention to support issues but in order to be effective for all women and girls I do think it is really important to understand their different situations and beliefs and not just storm in with a white saviour approach. It doesn't mean we should stop trying either though.

I didn't find the op incoherent. And I didn't find it offensive either - genuinely surprised some posters did.

I think feminism can be too easily dismissed by some as the preoccupations of a bunch of white middle class women. I don't often stop to look at the bigger picture.

I went to bed after reading and commenting on a decent post - at last a woman of colour is not berating me for being white and feminist! I thought the OP was absolutely fine. And I wake up to all this vitriol.

I've always felt uncomfortable about people wanting to ban hijab - I think it has to come from within. It's not my business, however much I may want it to be. If Muslim sisters ask for my support I'll give it.

Jesus Maloney! What’s with some of the responses?!

OP please don’t be discouraged at the responses to your delurking. I for one really appreciate your post.

Lots of people use “white feminism” as an insult, either to shut down feminist debate all together or to virtue signal. And I’m always because tbh we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

If we advocate for ourselves we’re pulled up on ignoring greater issues such as FGM. If we advocate for others we are being colonial and applying western values.

So I really appreciate your “rant”. Thanks for writing it.

I don't understand why people are reacting badly to the OP. It makes sense to me (as a white, middle class feminist). Like it or not there is a historic problem of woc feeling like white feminists don't understand their problems. Sisteroutrider on twitter has helped me to understand this much more. I'm also reading Audre Lorde at the moment who talks about this.

The op made it clear she dislikes the way 'white feminism' is used to silence women. It doesn't mean sometimes white feminists aren't inadvertently racist. See Mary Beard on the Haiti 'civilisation' debacle. She doesn't deserve to be threatened and harrassed for what she wrote. But I wouldn't defend her either as the tweet was racist.

Another here who found it coherent and not offensive at all - OP was saying that women fighting against oppression often open the door to other women, that feminism isn’t free from racism because no part of society is, and we can have disagreements, but a blanket silencing of women ‘because white feminism’ is not helpful.

I didn't find the op incoherent. And I didn't find it offensive either - genuinely surprised some posters did.
Me neither. I don’t understand why people are accusing you of being a man OP.
I think it’s great that you think feminism is such a positive movement for change.
You don’t have to agree with every part of it. It’s fine to say you like wearing the Hijab. I know many women who do and do not feel in the least oppressed by it. It’s an interesting topic of feminist debate.
You are welcome here.

100% agree with Timbuktu's post. Very well written.

I'm so glad more people have come on who also find the op coherent and interesting.

Of course, hers is only one person's point of view, but welcome all the same.

I understand why people are touchy, but the OP read just fine to me, and as a feminist who is also white thought it had some good points which Timbuktu expands on really well. I've almost certainly benefitted myself from exploitation of both working class British people and people in the imperial colonies and I'm OK with acknowledging that some of my forebears probably did awful things, and that it's OK for the people affected to be pretty angry about that.

I live in Canada now and we have a problem here with moving on from how our country and some of our people have and all too often still do see First Nations as other and treated/treat them at times as pretty much sub human. As fellow women and feminists some battles we share and some are different and that's OK. Generally I see men and their allies trying to create false divides in order to perpetuate the fantasy of 'different types of women' as well as to find way to denigrate and defang feminists. I think those are the people we should be saying 'fuck off' to.

I was thinking of starting a thread about the fact that I’ve often seen “feminism is intersectional or it is bullshit” but never “anti-racism is intersectional or it is bullshit”. And for me that says that they believe racism important enough to campaign against without having to think about women’s specific needs. But women’s rights are only a bit important, not a ‘real’ oppression like race.

@MagnificentDelurker I would just like to add to the voices above who said they appreciate your post. I thought it made a lot of sense. I also found your short post on another thread about viewing women as magical in childhood to be really lovely (and quite poetic!).

I would understand if you've been put off by the response you've received, but personally I hope you stick around as I would like to read a lot more from you and a lot less from posters such as @AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth, @hipsterfun and @TellsEveryoneRealFacts. I can't believe one of them told you to fuck off! Utterly ridiculous response. And all this "well if I'm NOT ALLOWED to save you from wearing a hijab you can forget about my support! Can't get ANYTHING RIGHT!" stuff would be hilarious, if it weren't so depressing.

For those of you who have responded with vitriol (of a level I've rarely seen here) to this perfectly reasonable, and indeed insightful, post, I would ask that you please seriously reflect upon why. But instead I'm sure you'll just continue to be massively defensive.

I too found it an interesting post. Thank you OP.

OP I'm also a bit confused about some of the responses here. I have found your rant really refreshing. Thanks for posting. Maybe some people are defensive because the phrase "white feminist" does get thrown around a lot pejoratively. I'm a bit tired of it myself because it is pretty unfair representation of what I've experienced of feminism in the UK, which imo goes to great efforts to listen to all sorts of voices. I've never been in a feminism lecture, for example, which hasn't included a large number of bame women's writings.

I hope the few responses you have had that seem a bit bad tempered don't put you off. Please come back and discuss. Especially hijab, which I think it a really interesting cultural phenomenon in the UK. I'm white. I grew up near one of the cities which became a major centre for immigration from India and Pakistan in the 1970s. I grew up alongside proper racists, members of the BNP and NF etc. I was a bit bewildered by them if I'm honest. I was quite excited to meet people from different backgrounds and countries, though I accept that in itself is quite othering, but I didn't feel animosity anyway, and never have.

What I find interesting about the hijab, which I don't agree women should wear but would not support a ban, is that it is so new and so popular among young women from muslim backgrounds. Also that there are so many different styles of headscarf, many of which are clearly not meant to be modest but to make a statement (fashion, rebellion, identity, FU to western culture, whatever) This aspect of hijab I like because who can't support a rebel? However I'm also a big fan of My Stealthy Freedom, which is obviously the opposite of embracing hijab as choice. What I don't like is being asked to agree that hijab is feminist. You can have your own thoughts on this and I can have mine. We don't need to agree to be fellow feminists because some problems are so complex there will be endless discussion around them. What I will say though is that I am equally against any other form of restrictive dress that women are expected to wear that men are not. Even if it is just more time spent getting dressed for the street - putting on make up for example - because men get to take advantage of that extra time to learn to play the guitar, or study, or play video games. I'm also an atheist. I don't think the hijab as worn by a lot of young women near me is always a sign of religious piety but I would be against religious rules of any sort, from any religion.

All of this is compatible with an understanding that Black British women have a different experience and set of problems from me. As do African American women, Muslim women, Native women, all women in the global south, Jewish women, etc. and within these groups many divisions and differences. To me this is what intersectional feminism means. It's not all about the trans but about class, race, poverty, colour, culture.

Hey magnificent

I got a bit confused by your post so gave up

But that is definitely more me then you

If lights is right then i am fully supportive of your post

I would say that assigned and the others are usually pretty spot on, so they may well be getting a feeling that you definitely didnt intend to put over...but i find thats incredibly easy to do on an online forum

I think some interesting points have been made by OP. It's interesting to see how 'white women' are seen as an amorphous mass from the outside. However Hollywood women's struggles have as little to do with me as they do with you.

I also resent being told what I can and can't have an opinion on. What I'm 'allowed' to believe in. This is identity politics and it's bullshit. Identity politics is neoliberalism in disguise and actively prevents international solidarity.

I believe in internationalism, the idea of the "Brotherhood of Man" (obviously that's an outdated way of expressing it) that was part of the idealist left movements of the 20th Century.

I will not refrain from having an opinion about the hijab. I will not view 'Muslim women' as a single entity (much as you seem to lump me with Hollywood). The political spectrum is varied and I will pick and choose which Muslim women I agree with. I happen to agree with the ones who say the hijab is bad.

My Irish grandmother put a scarf on her head every time she went outdoors so you do not have a monopoly on views about scarves on the head. It's part of my culture too. A part of my culture that we don't do anymore, just as we don't cover our ankles and wrists lest we be viewed as promiscuous or whatever.

I don't believe in cultural relativism when it comes to women's rights. To me, women's liberation crosses cultural and ethnic boundaries.

God I hate identity politics. It's poison. Why are we defined by, and separated by WHO we are not our IDEOLOGY?

It's so fucking anti-intellectual.

Oh and I don't respect your religion either. I think its a load of old cobblers (like all religions). Obviously I respect your right to practice it but I don't respect it.

'White women' are being told they have to bend over backwards to genuflect over these nasty patriarchal religions.

Thanks for all the support ladies. I have avoided feminism all my life because of all the complexities that are hard to deal with. This site accidentally found has educated me a lot. I am here mostly to learn and that’s why I lurk more than contribute. I am at work so won’t be able to write much till later.