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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

742 replies

DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 03:34

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/03/2018 17:34

I do not think women should be in a position to decide which men are deemed worthy of having prostate surgery and which aren't........

Electricgobblers · 02/03/2018 17:36

Bertrand. Are you meaning we sit in silos segregated depending on what issue is being discussed and aren’t allowed to have a view on anything that does not directly affect us?

Electricgobblers · 02/03/2018 17:37

If that’s your argument, why should anyone in the Uk take anything to do with what’s going on elsewhere in the world? Doesn’t affect us so nowt to do with us.

larrygrylls · 02/03/2018 17:38

Bertrand,

Do you exclusively see female doctors and surgeons?

Personally I prefer the foremost expert in their field regardless of the shape of their genitals.

BertrandRussell · 02/03/2018 17:43

No. But I think that men should not have a say in whether or not a woman should have an abortion.

Electricgobblers · 02/03/2018 17:45

Bertrand. A doctor has to sign off that you should be allowed an abortion. Abortion in itself is illegal, the abortion act allowed exceptions.

So you don’t think any Male docs should be involved in signing off for women to have abortions.

I’ve never heard of anyone who thinks like that before.

BertrandRussell · 02/03/2018 17:53

it is pointless trying to discuss things seriously when people try to score cheap debating tricks.

TheBrilliantMistake · 02/03/2018 17:54

Again, if the woman is a sexual abuser, does she retain her rights, and if not does the minor have any say? This situation happened with a female teacher who became pregnant by a student. This specific situation opens up a can of worms regarding who should have a say in the pregnancy.

Electricgobblers · 02/03/2018 17:57

How is it a cheap debating trick?

You think men shouldn’t have a say in whether or not a woman can have an abortion.

So no Male doctor should be signing off abortions. By your logic.

TheBrilliantMistake · 02/03/2018 18:00

I think we have to separate the sperm donor from men who might be in a position of political or medical authority.
There's a whole other debate about our laws and who gets to decide them, and it's clouding the essential debate about the sperm donor having a say or not.
I still believe the host / mother has to have the final say because it's her body, but the sexual abuser case is a rare complication that MIGHT allow for a woman to forfeit her rights. Male doctors and politicians is a red herring, as there are female of both who could overrule a woman's bodily autonomy.

AskBasil · 02/03/2018 20:00

"Personally I prefer the foremost expert in their field regardless of the shape of their genitals."

How pleasant it is to be loftily above any trauma that might have been experienced by people to whom the shape of genitals is actually quite important because they've had horrific, traumatising experiences at the hands of people with genitals which shaped their socialisation, behaviour and attitudes.

In other words, it's not just about the genitals and if you believe it is, then you have never really listened and/ or understood what women say.

Surprise surprise.

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:11

I support the law as it stands in Britain.
I strongly disagree with the law in ireland.
I agree that a woman should have a right to an abortion before the foetus is viable.
But there is no way on earth I can agree with a woman aborting a 39 week viable pregnancy. And don’t tell me, ‘not a lot of women would terminate a viable pregnancy that late.’ Good. And thank God the law is what it is in the U.K. to prevent the ones that would. If the foetus is not viable, they can legally have an abortion to term. As I said, I am in full agreement with the law on this one.
All this ‘forced birther’ Shit is just that... shit.
As a woman will have to give birth regardless, this argument doesn’t hold any water anyway.
I think most people are with me on this (both on this thread, and society as a whole) 8 week foetus? Not a viable baby, woman has a right to abort. 37 week viable foetus? No, that is a baby, with a right to live. You want it out of your body, fine, drink some pineapple juice or something to induce labour, but you shouldn’t be able to stop it’s heart just because, as you’d have to give birth anyway.
And if this kicks me out of the ‘feminism club’ then, oh well.

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:16

I also strongly morally disagree with abortion as a form of contraception.
I know women who have had three, four, five abortions, and yes, I won’t lie, I do judge them for it.
Anyone can make a mistake, fall pregnant, have contraception that fails etc. They should absolutely have the right to have an abortion.
But after your fourth or fifth abortion that’s just fucking carelessness.
And don’t tell me that it doesn’t happen, because it does.

thebewilderness · 02/03/2018 20:19

How will you punish the women who abort a pregnancy past the 20 or 22 week time frame acceptable to you?
Are you aware that 20 weeks is the earliest point at which anomalies are tested for in the fetus?

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:22

I wouldn’t punish her. Just as I don’t punish people who break other laws.

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:25

Also,any people clearly stated they agree with the law as it stands. So finding out and aborting die to any ‘anomolies’ isn’t relevant to me, as a woman could legally have an abortion post 24 weeks as it stands for medical reasons.
To clarify, I disagree with abortion for ‘social reasons’ after 24 weeks.

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:25

*many people

thebewilderness · 02/03/2018 20:27

Obviously I was not specific enough in my language.
How do the people on the thread who advocate for abortion to be illegal past a certain point think the law should punish women who violate it.

AskBasil · 02/03/2018 20:27

"But after your fourth or fifth abortion that’s just fucking carelessness"

Actually I don't think it is. I suspect it's much more complex than carelessness. I think it's probably some kind of emotional problem about pregnancy and abortion, but I don't quite know what it is, not being clued up on this subject.

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:34

It’s nuanced, isn’t it?
24.5 weeks? Nothing.
39.5 weeks? The same punishment as if the baby were alive and then killed.
I think at the point the baby has a right to life.
I’m sure there would be exemptions, common sense would be applied on a case by case basis.

Emotional problems whereby you repeatedly create and then end life are morally repugnant to me. That’s my personal opinion, and I judge.

3EyedRaven · 02/03/2018 20:37

Just thinking about it now, and wondered how feminist still consider the aborting of female foetus’ a feminist issue?
Surely, if to be a feminist you must fundamentally agree with abortion for any reason at any stage, then it doesn’t matter why these female foetus’ are being aborted?

larrygrylls · 02/03/2018 20:38

Thebewilderness,

You would punish them according to the tariff set up for the crime. Clearly mitigating circumstances are taken into account.

There are many tragic reasons people commit crimes. Some people do steal to feed their children. Many drug addicts are not evil but victims, and yet they commit crime to sustain their dependency.

Sentencing is not just to punish but to deter.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 02/03/2018 21:10

How do the people on the thread who advocate for abortion to be illegal past a certain point think the law should punish women who violate it.

The punishment should be for the abortionist, or the seller of the TOP medicine, not the woman.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 02/03/2018 21:13

Are you aware that 20 weeks is the earliest point at which anomalies are tested for in the fetus?

How is this relevant (in GB)? Termination up to term is permitted for foetuses with birth defects incompatible with life.

thebewilderness · 02/03/2018 21:39

I keep running into this same wall of how it is done in the UK. I find it somewhat amusing because the USians on the internet are constantly derided for being US centric.
I can only conclude that in the UK the self styled Feminists believe that they can be Feminists and pro life, aka opposed to women's bodily autonomy, because the current laws do not inconvenience them.