Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

No don't want to deny women abortion, I haven't said that, but I do think there should be limits- I would reduce the limit to reflect babies can be born alive and survive at 23 weeks
People are divided on where those limits should be and for what reasons.
I don't think the- "cos my autonomy" stacks up, too weak for me for reasons already stated.
Don't think this is a reason to say someone can't be feminist.

Most people are somewhere in between on the issue-
Where you stand on it, does little to reflect how feminist you are.. if you concede that autonomy isn't an absolute

Calling someone a forced birther doesn't refute my argument either...

If you think women should be obliged to give birth to babies that they are unable or unwilling to look after then you are in favour of forcing them to give birth. It's quite simple. If you can find another term then I am happy to use it. But I will not call use Pro-Life.

'As usual, the forced birthers are focussing on the vanishingly tiny number of late abortions, when what they actually want to do is deny women access to abortion at any stage. In some cases even including the MAP.'

Rubbish, the vast majority on here have argued for the current limit to remain and for early abortion to be easy and available.

Evidence for this straw man, please?

No because we live in a country where you are not forced to raise a child.

To me the abortion to term case rests on;

1. Because you believe in absolute autonomy. I don't think many people do when it comes down to it. Or they say they do but are then hypocritical in other ways.

Or

1. Because they argue that the foetus is not "alive" or unworthy of any sort of rights. Which to me it's plain that they are alive, it's not mysterious- it's obvious from premature babies, ultrasounds etc.

I find people switch sides, like once the autonomy argument fails it goes back to my rights are worth more than this - thing, parasite- or whatever dehumanising term of choice is substituted. I don't think ever stack up. Talk about transplants, you kidney, molar pregnancy, violinists on dialysis.... whatever term you choose to muddy the water... which is akin to lady penis, gender spectrums and chromosome disorders in trans arguments in my eyes. It's an illusion, a deliberate creation of confusion to justify something that's false. To me an unborn baby is s human, alive. I believe it's wrong to kill. It's that simple. I think the truth often is simple.

I think the simplest, most truthful pro- choice argument is that killing sometimes is justifiable... and that those with more rights, power and control should decide on the fate of those with less or no rights, the dependant and the weak.
It's the answer to the question why why it's preferable to terminate instead of giving a live birth when the process is the same in full term infants- because it's the right to kill a person that's dependant.
It's why before abortion, people would use infanticide, throw baby off a cliff, abandon, sacrifice, etc.
In its simplest terms, it's the right to kill someone who is an inconvience, disabled, dependant, weak. It's the right to exert power over another human being because you believe your rights exceed there own.

Well, I think the simplest forced birth argument is that women should be punished for having sex. This is reinforced by the many forced birthers who are prepared to make an exception for rape.

I agree that the exception for rape is deeply weird.

If you think abortion is an unjustified taking of life then i don't see why circumstances of conception are relevant. We don't allow infanticide on this basis.

Most people are somewhere in between on the issue-
Where you stand on it, does little to reflect how feminist you are.. if you concede that autonomy isn't an absolute

Completely agree. I find the proposition that anyone who doesn't support abortion on demand to term is a "forced birther" pretty insulting. This is a complex issue, people have varied and often conflicting views about it. The law (in E, S and W) as it currently stands rather reflects this.

As usual, the forced birthers are focussing on the vanishingly tiny number of late abortions, when what they actually want to do is deny women access to abortion at any stage. In some cases even including the MAP

As Larry has pointed out that is a straw man of epic proportions; as is this.

Well, I think the simplest forced birth argument is that women should be punished for having sex. This is reinforced by the many forced birthers who are prepared to make an exception for rape

I can't recall anyone on this referring to, and approving of, the rape exception.

How would all feel if you lived in a country were scans during pregnancy were not given because to do so would impinge on the rights of the foetus?

Or if you were suicidal and denied an abortion and forced to give birth by CS at 25 weeks with the child removed and put into care?

Or that if you did have a miscarriage you may well be subject to a police investigation and be given a suspended sentence or worse jailed?

The woman is not being punished for having sex. But nor can she say that the fetus is a parasite that has been forced on her by some external party. She had sex, either didn't use contraceptives or didn't use adequate contraceptives, thus causing the existence of a fetus with the potential for a full life, which by the way is likely developing to resemble her in some ways, because it shares her dna. She is given approx 6 months in which to have the fetus aborted, even if there are no issues such as disability of the fetus, rape or incest.
But some women here say that if she is not offered an abortion in the later stages of her pregnancy, right up to the moment before birth (and in the later stages of pregnancy abortion means literally killing the baby and giving birth to a dead baby) then she is being punished for having sex. They are insisting that the fetus, even shortly before birth, is a nothing, or worse than nothing - a parasite. And that the slightest whim of the woman, leading her not to want the baby alive, matters more than the fetus having the right to live its life.
No-one here is arguing that the life of the fetus is more important than the life of the woman.
Almost no-one is arguing that there should be no right to abortion in the first 6 months of the pregnancy.
If you are saying that you can't be a feminist if you don't believe that a woman should have the absolute right to abort up to birth, regardless of the reason or lack of one, presumably financed by the NHS and with doctors required to do it (very few would agree to do it if not forced to), then I suggest that you don't publicise that belief. There are few enough women who consider themselves to be feminists as it is.

They have Lass - earlier in the thread.

There was this post,for example -

I'm pro-life. I believe a foetus is a human life from the point of conception and therefore only agree with termination in exceptional circumstances (rape, TFMR).

@BertrandRussell, you say men shouldn't have a say in the issue- I have a male friend who was almost aborted on medical advice (the doctor thought he had spina bifida which he absolutely does not- he is in perfect health, has studied to PhD level and has a fulfilling life). Should he be denied any involvement in influencing whether people like him are aborted? I do think there are women's issues where men's voices should absolutely be a secondary consideration but is what constitutes a valuable life not a bit more universal than that?

Regarding rape and suicide and forced birth via CS. This in Ireland. FOUR years ago.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/ireland-woman-forced-caesarean-pregnant-rape-friend

Regarding suspended sentence via medical abortion, which happened in the UK and Northern Ireland.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Myself. I was living in the North West, England, UK and not allowed a scan nor a referral for an abortion from my GP in 1998. I did not want to suffer a third miscarriage. Albeit 20 years ago, but I don't doubt that this still happens.

"Should he be denied any involvement in influencing whether people like him are aborted?"

It's tough-but no he shouldn't.

Just no. No vagina, no opinion.

I'm disheartened to see the lack of consideration and nuance on this thread. I'm probably going to bow out now and not read any more replies, it's making me quite sad.

Pre natal depression and suicidal thoughts are very much discussed here on Mumsnet. There was a blog about this a few weeks ago. Incredibly touching and very important. It did end in termination at 18 weeks.

I'm trying to find the Gallup / Mori polling, but actually men tend to support more relaxed abortion laws than women. So although we might think of that horrific picture from the US where all the lawmakers signing the bill which impacted on women's health were men, if you want to lobby to raise the limit from 24 weeks you would need male support to be successful...

Olennas...
Yes I think men would probably be supportive of abortion on the whole... probably because it gives them a get out of jail free card do they can shirk responsibility.
I don't understand why people seem to think men are more likely to be anti abortion when it benefits them .

Just in case anyone is in any doubt I did have an abortion at 10 weeks. I had to act quickly though, and it was done through the BPA, was free on the NHS (bet that stings with some people) and I used information from the local library and a phone box as well - our phone had not been installed yet.

I still had to walk past the religious rosary people to get to the clinic.

Elendon the first article is not forced birth. The law is in this country you can't abort a healthy baby past 24 week.... and a lot of people think it should remain so.
As for suicide, surely the issue is adequate mental health provision rather than abortion at all costs.

And second article...
Foetus identified as male, so well past the age of a medical pill abortion. She may have harmed or killed herself and caused pain to that foetus. Self procuring abortion is dangerous and needs to be discouraged

They have Lass - earlier in the thread.

There was this post,for example -

I'm pro-life. I believe a foetus is a human life from the point of conception and therefore only agree with termination in exceptional circumstances (rape, TFMR)

Oh well done- one post. And that comment is then applied to everyone else who does not support abortion to term.

And here is a whole field of straw men since almost nobody has said they oppose abortion or treatment like this. The 25 week case arose because she was refused an abortion at 8 weeks.

How would all feel if you lived in a country were scans during pregnancy were not given because to do so would impinge on the rights of the foetus?

Or if you were suicidal and denied an abortion and forced to give birth by CS at 25 weeks with the child removed and put into care?

Or that if you did have a miscarriage you may well be subject to a police investigation and be given a suspended sentence or worse jailed?