I am about to ID as a man

[YesItsADebate]

In 1.5 hours, I will be identifying as a gay man who does not conform with male gender stereotypes. I expect my local leisure facility to comply with the Swim England guidelines and agree that I am entitled to access the men-only swimming sessions, the male showers and toilets and to wear swimming trunks. I also expect them to re-educate any other man who objects to any of the above.

In other words, I have a meeting with the local swimming pool at 10 to see whether or not I’ll be resorting to topless swimming and public nudity tonight in an effort to prove my point that the Swim England guidelines are ridiculous

Wish me luck!

Because by being a pisstaker, you're spreading the idea that pisstakers exist, which rather skews the evidence.

My first thought when I read SE’s new guidelines was every pervert, peeping tom and paedophile must be rubbing their cocks with glee at the very idea of the ease of access they will have to woman and girls with this proposal.

Trans people need protection too but this is not the way. It’s far to open to abuse.

Good luck op

Gay men still have a penis dj

Not what a teen or tween getting changed wants to see when getting changed for their swim lessons.

It's about having the same body. Not how you identify.

Place marking because I'm interested to see how this goes.

But if a woman is mind blowingly hot, I'll sneak a couple of extra looks at her. I might even daydream about her. The same as I would about a man.

you should have more respect than to do it when someone is naked but just because we have to put up with the occasional sleazy woman doesn't' we shouldn't have to put up with men.

If you were a male you'd have an erection, should women have to see your erection in the showers? While you "sneak a couple of looks" at the mind blowingly hot woman?

Also following with great interest, although I'm slightly concerned about your wellbeing doing this!

I personally feel they're safer with us. Obviously, you don't have to agree. But statistically, a lot of these people experience violent attacks. If your argument is that men are more violent, surely they're not really safe in the mens?

I think there should be a third option. I'd be in there immediately. It sounds like it would be the most fun of the changing rooms.

A third space is a perfect solution. But TRA’s don’t want that. They want to take our spaces away from us and replace natal women so that we are no longer women, just they are.

My bisexual female friends and I have often commented that we wouldn't be able to say the stuff we do (privately between each other) if we were men. I suppose we do it with more respect, but we also look at women and comment between ourselves about how sexy she looks. I've said often, I wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating Maltesers etc

But we aren't safer with them

Women's is for women

Not for any man who think a he might be in danger in the men's

think there should be a third option. I'd be in there immediately. It sounds like it would be the most fun of the changing rooms.

That's fine then. You can share it with the TIMs. While us boring stick in the muds of both sexes can retain sex segregation. Win win!

If your argument is that men are more violent, surely they're not really safe in the mens?

Then that is the problem of men to sort out. It is not a problem you simply "fix" by putting the potentially violent males into a women's space.

Women fought for those space for their safety, wtf can't men do it?

Placemarking for an update!

I don't think any of the trans people I know care a shit apart from to hope the verbal abuse and put downs, and the fear they experience every day, to stop. I think a third space would be popular actually.

Except that that's not what most of them ask for, is it?

I know potentially violent women come in the women's. I mentioned I'd been sexually assaulted by a woman.

I've said often, I wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating Maltesers etc

Brilliant, I know you're just so achingly cool and none of us have ever fancied a man or a woman before ignoring the rather larger radfem lesbian contingent obviously but we do know how sexual attraction works. The basics anyway.

I think a third space would be popular actually.

It wouldn't be actually. And there is quite a lot written about why they don't want that. You'd know that I'd have thought since you're so much more in the loop than the rest of us.

came to the conclusion that Masons & Mosques (& other segregated religious venues
The Wailing Wall is Jerusalem would be another example.

We want this to be a sex/gender debate. If we bring religion and race into it then there is a danger that the debate will get diluted, derailed and sidelined.
We need a pure sex/gender matter. Like OP is doing.

Meeting over. I’ll give a proper update once I’m home but it was very hard to keep a straight face while telling the lovely managers I met that yes, I would prefer to go topless.

And women don't suffer that?

Abuse, shouting , comments, unwanted attention is pretty much a daily occurrence for women from about 11 yrs old onwards.

If only people have as much of a shit about that as they do about these trans identifying males.

Welcome to our fucking world

Don't think anyone on this page would argue against a third option. It's actually considered transphobic though as "trans women are women".

Are any of your friends the new visions TRA type of steamrollering trans who have no desire or interest in actually transitioning or living a feminine life and who just want validation of their lady dick?

Or are you basing this all on genuine transsexual people with real gender dysphoria and who live as their preferred gender?

If the latter, then welcome to the party, we all support that group.

If the former? Then god Jed, I don't even want to know you, as Mrs Landingham would have said.

I just don't think this argument is possible to resolve in a binary way and keep everyone happy. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Women can be bloody frightening themselves, in groups, and at certain ages, for example. How do you get away from that? Has no one here met an aggressive woman in the toilets? Even Cheryl Cole threatened to bash a friend's head in once in the toilet at a club. True story.

^ my previous comment should have been tagged to @Djnoun

Well the answer to that is not to open up the space to men as well and increase the chances surely?