I am about to ID as a man

[YesItsADebate]

In 1.5 hours, I will be identifying as a gay man who does not conform with male gender stereotypes. I expect my local leisure facility to comply with the Swim England guidelines and agree that I am entitled to access the men-only swimming sessions, the male showers and toilets and to wear swimming trunks. I also expect them to re-educate any other man who objects to any of the above.

In other words, I have a meeting with the local swimming pool at 10 to see whether or not I’ll be resorting to topless swimming and public nudity tonight in an effort to prove my point that the Swim England guidelines are ridiculous

Wish me luck!

Positvely Perf Yes, I've reported myself. It's so difficult to say anything without being open to misinterpretation.

If they refuse your request, then be thoroughly disingenuous & tweet one of the numerous TRAs to let them know.

They will wholeheartedly jump on board in your defence, in a nasty, rabid attack - until they realise that you're in no way attempting to 'pass'...

Ooh I wouldn't be doing this. The TRAs will totally attack and spam the centre nonestop, which will probably mean the centre will back down and be back to allowing self-ID. I find the OPs idea genius, and I wish I had the balls to do it, and I do think that it will probably work and that chain will invoke the exceptions to the EA (as they should) but I don;t much fancy setting the rabid TRAs onto any business that is actually protecting female only spaces.

Mind, will the TRAs care..as the OP is a transman, not a transwoman? They don't seem to care about transmen at all. Though they could still look at it like 'if they won't allow a self identifying man in tyhe mens, then they would not with a self identifying woman' I guess

Also 'passing' is not an issue for most TRAs, its the TRAs who are pushing the narrative that dysphoria is not even needed, nor is any transition at all

I am afraid I wouldn’t be wanting to engage with TRAs or bring them into it at all, either. This movement deserves to stay as far removed from them as is practically possible.

Very interesting thread. Well done op.

Perhaps if Oscar Pistorius identified as able bodied and ran in the Olympics then they'd get a taste of the self ID medicine in sports too.

Bad example.

TRAs are mental. You really don't want to involve them in any way, even if they start out supportive because they don't have full information, or whatever.

They are not credible to the general population, and they're the ones you want onside, not the rabid activists.

Excellent. I was just feeling depressed after a long Facebook argument about pink and blue brains where I was repeatedly abused and called a cis TERF whatever... this thread has cheered me up immensely.
Op, you're brilliant and I'm right behind you.

Well done OP!

I relaised today that the way for women / lesbians have women only meeting is call them ‘transmen’ meetings.

No men in dresses allowed.

So in Sweden they are wasting money sending cervical screening and breast screening invitations to people with penises?

And...I guess if he discovers a lump on his testicles, or prostrate issues, he'll simply ignore it because it can't be happening...and medical institutions can in fact refuse to treat him for any Male conditions?

I'm absolutely dizzy, what's the furthest point past peak...?

Lovelyusername excellent plan

So in Sweden they are wasting money sending cervical screening and breast screening invitations to people with penises?

Not just in Sweden, in the UK too.

I keep saying this but a salient point I think: it's the centenary of the vote for women. Draw on the energy of the suffragettes.

Let's cause utter disruption

Game on!

Oscar Pistorius did qualify to run in the Olympics - he so far outran the other Paralympians that he thought he'd be better in the Olympics - and he did pretty well. But not as well as he could in the Paralympics.
www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/18911479

But the difference here is that he was trying to compete with people who had more of an advantage than he did; not compete with people who were all less advantaged than him, which is what transwomen would be doing when they compete in women's sporting events.

Lovelyusername
I realised today that the way for women / lesbians have women only meeting is call them ‘transmen’ meetings.

But that makes women a subset of men. There must be another way.

I haven't had time to go through all the posts, but wanted to make sure that you have given them very clear info about the Equality Act 2010 exemptions they can apply for single-sex spaces? They will only have seen TRA propaganda, and won't know the specific clauses etc. You could send them the Fair Play for Women's Guide to EA2010 single-sex exemptions, and say 'for balance and fairness, I wish to make you aware of the Equality Act 2010 single-sex exemptions you are perfectly lawfully entitled to apply (Schedule 3, Part 7, sections 26-28) to maintain single-sex services, and not allow a trans-identified person like myself in' and give them this link: fairplayforwomen.com/uk-equality-law-womens-rights-factsheet-2/

When Pistoris ran/was requesting to run in the Olympics it was actually argued that his blades gave him an advantage over able bodied runners. I’m sure I remember that. Obviously you’d think been an amputee would be a disadvantage but apparantly it can be argued the blades are an unfair advantage??

Yes, it was argued that that might be the case, but as he didn't even get to the finals in the 2012 Olympics, it's pretty safe to say it didn't give him an advantage. I remember them testing to see whether it would prior to the Olympics as well - and they must have decided that he didn't get enough advantage to allow him to compete. I remember the tv show where they were discussing the build up of kinetic energy in his blades so that he got faster where people's muscles would start to tire, but it didn't seem to matter in the event.

Pistorius' blades absorbed energy and gave it back later, more so than legs do. He was also allowed to make them longer than his legs probably would have been. The general view was that they allowed Pistorius, whose oxygen transport was roughly that of a good amateur distance runner, to sprint at a competitive pace. It was covered at the time by Ross Tucker, a South African sports scientist. See his opening salvo here:

scienceofsport.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/open-letter-to-iaaf-oscar-pistorius.html

I don't think it tells us much about trans-athletics: Pistorius with legs would have been a half-decent club middle-distance runner, with the blades he was a half-decent Olympic sprinter. Had his career not been ended for other reasons the mess would have had to have been sorted out, but he was also sui generis: he could only use the blades so effectively because he had been using them since he was a small child.

The much messier debate which does tell us worrying things about the implications of trans athletes, also in South African running, is that about Caster Semenya. Tucker's had a lot to say about that, too.

sportsscientists.com/2016/07/caster-semenya-debate/

as he didn't even get to the finals in the 2012 Olympics, it's pretty safe to say it didn't give him an advantage

I don't think that's a reasonable argument. A lot of people would struggle to cycle a marathon course in a time better than a marathon running could run it. However, it would be ludicrous to say that the bike confers no advantage: put an Olympic marathon runner on a bike, or more to the point put an Olympic road cyclist on a bike, and they'll cycle 26 miles and change in rather faster than two hours.

Pistorius didn't run competitively in the Olympics, but he qualified; had someone with his physiology and ability but with legs entered the same event they would have been seconds off the pace.

Discussing this dispassionately risks being seen to mock the paralympics. Taking my life in my hands: the absolute standard of the paralympics is low, and most competitors in it would, had they not had any form of disability, been at best club athletes. Where the times in the paralympics approach that of the main olympics, usually there is an equipment advantage, and when the paralympic times are faster, it always does.

The obvious example is wheelchair marathons: the world record for the wheelchair marathon is more than half an hour inside the running time (1:29 v 2:03? Something like that). That does not mean that by an amazing stroke of misfortune all the people capable of taking 25% off the world record for the marathon happen to be in wheel chairs: it means that physiologically, wheelchair marathons are faster because of the equipment.

If all this does go ahead how will you stay safe?

If an old lady can be attacked on speakers corner just for being female I dread to think what could happen to you all.

Please be careful.

yeti thank you

I think for many of us, this fight is worth the risk.

Pistorius didn't run competitively in the Olympics, but he qualified

He did. He got to the semi finals of the 400m. I realise that's neither here nor there but he did compete in the Olympics.

Small, time-limited calculated risk(s) to personal safety vs significant, ongoing risks to all women and girls.

A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do

Of course he ran competitively in the 2012 Olympics! He wasn't there for shits and giggles