I am about to ID as a man

[YesItsADebate]

In 1.5 hours, I will be identifying as a gay man who does not conform with male gender stereotypes. I expect my local leisure facility to comply with the Swim England guidelines and agree that I am entitled to access the men-only swimming sessions, the male showers and toilets and to wear swimming trunks. I also expect them to re-educate any other man who objects to any of the above.

In other words, I have a meeting with the local swimming pool at 10 to see whether or not I’ll be resorting to topless swimming and public nudity tonight in an effort to prove my point that the Swim England guidelines are ridiculous

Wish me luck!

It astonishes me that TRAs think there's any mileage in coming on these threads to persuade us that the lesbians we have been sharing our intimate spaces with for our whole lives suddenly pose some sort of sexually aggressive threat to us. Can you just stop it. It's not going to convince anyone because it's contrary to our lived experience and it's also really fucking offensive.

I understand why you are doing what you are doing OP and I think challenging this as part of a bigger picture is brave of you.

But just as an aside on the changing room issue alone, at our local pool, there is only one changing area for everyone - loads of cubicles with hard, lockable doors, mixed toilets and about 8 open showers (and about 4 closed showers right next to it). I genuinely don't have a problem with this and neither do any of the other users. The changing rooms open straight onto the pool area, there are employees there at any time and I have even stripped off in the (cubicled, obviously!) shower without any worry that someone might peek over the top or anything not that they'd want to!

So although I do agree that we need to look at this issue as a whole, in particular to protect vulnerable people, there's no reason that, done properly, a mixed space can't work as it does at my leisure centre.

Some people (bisexual or not) can be randy as hell without acting like arseholes and making other people uncomfortable. Regardless of where they fall on the libido spectrum from asexual to constantly up for it, though, they belong in the changing rooms allocated to people of their sex.

Those woman advocating for a hipper, more "fun" third space for themselves and their trans friends are welcome to lobby for it, nobody here is stopping them.

But we get away with it because we're women. [..] The inappropriate behaviour is always with willing recipients.

Or maybe it's because the behaviour is with willing recipients that you get away with it.

You can point at straw-women all you want, but the facts remain that female bodied people are far more likely to be assaulted and harassed by male bodied people than female bodied people - even if those female bodied people find other female bodied people incredibly alluring.

And because of this fact, it's understandable that women are going to feel safer and more comfortable around other women than those male bodied people that they've learnt (through experience) are a potential threat.

It's unlikely that a lesbian or bisexual woman is going to attack, harass or physically intimidate another woman. It is not at all unlikely that a man will.

Place marking!

Good luck!

I'd missed Dixie's post too.

The inappropriate behaviour is always with willing recipients.

Then it's not inappropriate.

Wth are you on about?

On the edge of my seat here . Hats off to you OP - I wish I had the courage to do more about this farce than ranting online.

Precisely. Tallulah. Lesbians are women, and I'm fine with women in women's spaces regardless of who they fancy. Anyone claiming that lesbians act like predatory creeps at the same rate straight men do is either lying or stupid. "Both, plus homophobic" is also an option.

Lookimg forward to your update. Good Luck OP!

Placemarking for update!

fantastic! You are my hero.

Or, come to that, the local 'Dads and Tots' group, which meets on Saturdays and gets free bacon butties, whereas the Mums group get to make their own orange squash and pay for the biscuits?

I literally just had this exact conversation with a friend recently..

Placemark for a proper read later! Well done!

Wth are you on about?

She thinks that a group of women most of whom have children have never had any interest in sex and would disapprove of people shagging willing partners, bless.

I think if you identify as two spirit you get biscuits AND bacon butties.

Place mark for catch up later

Are we back on mners having sex in the dark with their cardies on again?!

valentine please do it.

Lesbians and bisexual women I should have said.

These constant efforts to divide and conquer us by sexuality, skin colour, fertility status or whatever the hell are getting very tired

She thinks that a group of women most of whom have children have never had any interest in sex and would disapprove of people shagging willing partners, bless

Oh. Did she invent sex? They all do, don't they?

Would it bother you showering next to someone with an erection?

TBH yes it would. It would bother me that my teenage DDs might be showering next to a man with an erection. If that makes me uptight then so be it

I'm actually a vegetarian crunchmint but it's the fucking principle of the thing.

Very brave of you OP

Next time we go swimming, im either going to go in the men's to help my Dh with our children and identify as a man, or he will come in with me and identify as a woman.

Cos you know, why not?

Self ID is bollocks