Spectator article: Don't fall for it people

[JenniferJames]

Comrades,

The framing of the self-id debate as 'Corbynistas vs. Mumsnet' is a deliberate tactic by the right wing propaganda machine and done to undermine Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party and paint it as hopelessly divided. We're not.

It is important to remember that only a Corbyn gov't will lift women out of poverty, build homes, invest in the economy, make tuition fees free and stop invading the Middle East. Jeremy, though he doesn't hold our position, is the only Labour MP who has not only come out and said that women are entitled to a debate and to campaign against self-id, but that we have a right to raise money to see if the Equalities Act 2010 exemptions are being misused by AWS.

Hope everyone is well. Mumsnet you are indeed mighty.

[HerFemaleness]

Can't help but think that Labour need to know they're in danger of losing the votes of the people who put them within spitting distance of Downing Street in the last election.

I'm glad to see pressure on Labour and I say this as a Labour party member.

[QueenOfTheAndals]

Honestly? I don't think he's had time to consider it in detail.

I keep hearing this but it's not good enough. He's not a backbencher, he's the leader of the fucking opposition! He should get properly informed about these issues. It's not rocket science - surely even he can't pose with Sophie Cook or Lily Madigan and honestly think they are women?

But why isn't he listening to us? We only make up about half the population of the UK! Linda Bellos and A Woman's Place have offered to speak with him about this and have apparently had no response at all from his office.

[QuentinSummers]

There's lots of reasons I wouldn't vote for Corbyn. The fact he seems incapable of providing a decent opposition to the lame duck Tories. The fact he apparently had no position on Brexit. The fact his party is dogged by rumours of antisemitism and misogyny, and he does very little about that either (17 momentum members elected to the NEC, 17 men).
Lily Madigan and the self ID stuff is the icing on the cake in my opinion. JC clearly clearly doesn't care what women think or he'd have stamped on LMs atrocious behaviour.
TBH Jennifer I don't know why you remain so loyal. From the outside it looks like the behaviour of a beaten dog.
You'd fight better standing yourself as an independent on a women's rights tickets - and your comrades too.
Seriously, you don't have to put up with this shit. That party don't deserve your loyalty at the moment.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

@HerFemaleness dont think they care. As has been said by other elsewhere and numerous times before, look at the whole anti-semitism issue. Commissioned a report, which has done nothing and promoted the author to HoL.

[Gacapa]

He hasn't had time?

I've heard it all now.

The man is not fit to call himself leader of anything.

[DarthArts]

Thanks for posting @JenniferJames

However, like many other women I've become more and more disillusioned by the party over the last few years.

Local meetings overrun by momentum supporters who show no willingness to engage in any discussion or debate.

Shutting down long standing party members with cry's of "Blairite" or "Brownite" without thought (or even slightly applicable) when an opinion that deviates from their mantra is tabled.

The levels of verbal aggression, designed to deliberately shut down those to the centre left of the party, serve to make a mockery of democratic process within the party.

Oh and Self ID - don't even go there unless you are prepared to to face a barrage of criticism - as to be fair you are much aware of.

Stay and fight the fight?

Sorry but no. It's not a party I believe in any more and I don't want to fight for it. I want to fight against it.

JC has lost not just my membership but also my vote. I will not be voting Labour whilst he remains leader (well nominal leader as the momentum puppeteers pull his all too willing strings).

It's not MN against JC - it's a lot worse than that.

It's whole swathes of the previously Labour supporting population that feel totally and utterly pissed off by the aggressive, misogynistic, anti-semitic dogma being perpetrated by momentum who prop up the leadership.

My parents (members for 40 years) have left the party - independently of myself and my DH, I might add. So have many of their friends, driven out of CLP's they have dedicated so much time and effort to over decades due to the "war zone" they feel those meetings have now become.

We are not "falling" for anything. The party is divided imho and many of us are finding the only way to make their voices heard over the aggressive shouts and no platforming of the Corbymentum gang is to vote with our membership, time and money.

[Gacapa]

Well said Darth. Bang on.

[BigChocFrenzy]

I am politically centrist, no fixed political abode.

I'm also a mixed race woman
I would not consider voting for a party that throws women under the bus, any more than I would if they threw People of Colour under.

I also agree with Piglet that the level of anti-semitism in the Labour party is unacceptable and I think JC is not taking that seriously either.

[TravellingFleet]

I’m sorry, but I don’t think Labour can lift women out of poverty if the party doesn’t believe that women exist.

I’m extremely concerned about both young people with gender dysphoria, Young lesbians, and young people with autism. These are not the same situations and we need to be careful to distinguish between them. I am worried that young people will be funnelled into a ‘one size fits all’ treatment plan, at the expense of their long term mental health and ability to lead a fulfilled life.

[TheXXFactor]

I don’t think Labour can lift women out of poverty if the party doesn’t believe that women exist

This. Also, Labour's intentions are irrelevant if it can't win power, and it can't win power without women's support.

[CurriedNoodle]

I'm a bit confused after reading @JenniferJames twitter and her reaction to this issue being sent mainstream...

Surely the issue is bigger than just 'my party vs your party'.

I don't care who gets the message out, the quicker the better as far as I'm concerned. And I don't care whether the journalist is on the left or right.

[ExFunFeminist]

@QuentinSummers totally agree. All of this has opened my eyes to the antisemitism and misogyny within the LP, and I am horrified, I had no idea it was so deep-rooted. I have always voted Labour and I work with vulnerable people and see daily how people are being fucked over by austerity. We desperately need an alternative to the Tories and JC is forcing women out just for cheers at Glastonbury.

Politically I feel completely torn. At least the Tories are backtracking on the ridiculous notion of Self-ID. At the ballot box I feel I will have to choose between screwing over the 99% or women and girls.

[TERFousBreakdown]

I don't care who gets the message out, the quicker the better as far as I'm concerned. And I don't care whether the journalist is on the left or right.

See, I actually happen to care!

The right is not a friend to women.The right is happy to exploit us and to piggy-back on our concerns if (and ONLY if!) it happens to serve their agenda! The right loves to take credit for happening to be in power when the tipping point is reached and women have another breakthrough.

But the right is not, and never has been a friend to women! They might happily exploit the momentum we provide and may pay lip-service to our concerns - but at their core, they keep on working relentlessly for a return to a status quo ante in which people knew their place. And by 'people' I mean women - amongst others.

It is ultimately self-defeating for women to tie our flag up the pole of the right. They might tolerate us for the time being (because we happen to be useful) but we won't and can't, pretty much by definition, have a say in what the end goal looks like.

And while I've been ranting about the right quite a bit in this post, all this is basically just a long-winded way of saying:

The left desperately needs to do better by women because women don't really have any other options in the long run!

[QuentinSummers]

There is always more choice than Red vs Blue.
Independent. Green/Plaid/SNP. Lib dems. Spoilt ballot. A tactical vote for anyone in place of "vote none of the above".
Our vote is our voice and getting a particular party into power isn't what most of us get. I think red said on another thread that 72 votes won the last election.
So fuck it. Be creative with your vote. Just go to the polling booth :)

[SmurfOrTerf]

Spot on DarthArts

[DarthArts]

I don’t think Labour can lift women out of poverty if the party doesn’t believe that women exist

I agree - but would go further. Poverty (and frankly lack of equitable pay which is still an ongoing issue) is just one aspect where women still statistically fare worse than men.

If the party can't recognise women then all the many issues, where it's statistically proven that women encounter greater prejudice, less opportunity and are perceived as having lesser value all fall into that abyss.

Fundamentally it comes down to one thing for me.

You can't possibly be said support something whilst simultaneously denying its reality.

Labour policy doesn't support women because they don't subscribe to the reality that a woman is an adult human female.

It's not a hard concept to grasp, which is why so many people are aghast at those that seek to keep pretending the Emperor is wearing clothes...

[AskBasil]

Honestly? I don't think he's had time to consider it in detail

He hasn't had time to consider one of the most existential issues to affect women in a generation, in detail?

He hasn't had time to consider the impact on half the population, of what it means to tell them anyone can identify as them and they are bigots if they question it?

That shows exactly what he thinks of women doesn't it.

Jennifer I very much admire what you have done. But you sound like the fundamentalist christian marriage counsellor my friend went to when her husband was battering her: she told her to forgive him, open her heart, remember her marriage and loyalty to him etc. etc. So she did and a few weeks later, he tried to kill her. That's when she stopped listening to that marriage counsellor.

Many of us are done with this abuser, the Labour Party. We won't be going back to him, hoping he will change. We won't be voting Labour at the next election.

[NotTerfNorCis]

The thing is, the Labour party is a powerful political force with a good chance of getting into government. If you are left wing, isn't it better to reform it from within than abandon it, given that there isn't a left-wing alternative?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

"He hasn't had time to consider one of the most existential issues to affect women in a generation, in detail?"

So much this. Thanks Basil

[SquareDot]

Sorry, I Jennifer. I follow you on Twitter and really admire you. It's not only JC, but it's also Angela Rayner, McConnell, et al.

I will vote Labour again when they rid themselves of the misogyny that is rotting their core.

[SquareDot]

Autocorrect!

[Gacapa]

That's a great analogy, Basil.

[busyboysmum]

Absolutely spot on Dartharts.

I don't recognise Labour anymore and there is no way I am voting for them as things stand.

[DarthArts]

@AskBasil

Great post and absolutely sums up how I feel.

I'm not going to support a party that fundamentally supports the abuse of women through the "loophole" of denying that women are not a definable biological entity.

[AskBasil]

And this is something I said on the other thread, but I'll say it here too:

Transwomen, whether they have had operations and hormones or not, should not be allowed on women-only shortlist because they are not women. They are transwomen and that means their issues, while serious, are not the same as that of women.

If they are to take allocated political space in the Labour Party, then they must take that space from men, not from women. I would support trans-only shortlists, at the cost of men's places, not women's.

The brocialists won't be so keen on them then though, would they.