Spectator article: Don't fall for it people

[JenniferJames]

Comrades,

The framing of the self-id debate as 'Corbynistas vs. Mumsnet' is a deliberate tactic by the right wing propaganda machine and done to undermine Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party and paint it as hopelessly divided. We're not.

It is important to remember that only a Corbyn gov't will lift women out of poverty, build homes, invest in the economy, make tuition fees free and stop invading the Middle East. Jeremy, though he doesn't hold our position, is the only Labour MP who has not only come out and said that women are entitled to a debate and to campaign against self-id, but that we have a right to raise money to see if the Equalities Act 2010 exemptions are being misused by AWS.

Hope everyone is well. Mumsnet you are indeed mighty.

Thanks Terftastic, off to look at twitter:

twitter.com/socialistMike/status/963334153365262337

As far as the rest of the thread goes, tribalism is probably the biggest turn off in politics for me. Even before I'd become aware of the self-ID stuff, the tribalism on the left had driven me away.

look this silly student posturing that Times = Rupert Murdoch is just not helpfu

Nothing silly about it.

Murdoch is a potent evil. Foxx News is a horror show.

Don't know if this got linked to but this
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-s-purge-of-the-trans-rights-heretics-p32khgn36

was a recent one from Janice Turner in The Times where she says Corbyn has got to sort the issue after the blacklist and suspensions.

Few speak out because they get even more abuse than feminist heretics. But this horrible, exhausting stand-off has to end. Otherwise, my Labour Party membership number is L1287560. I do not believe in transubstantiation: add me to the list

With a comment below from "jennifer james"

"Given that sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, it is quite bizarre that our attempts to ENFORCE the Equality Act have lead us here. We look forward to self-id being looked at by party lawyers.
The Labour party is not divided, however much The Times wishes it were. Self-id is just one issue and it will be soon resolved. The party is absolutely united behind Jeremy Corbyn and his magnificent socialist policies which will lift women out of poverty, allow them to return to education and build homes for them and their children.
The tories' murderous and brutal attack on ordinary people has hit women particularly hard: disabled women, women carers and lone parents. Women are living with their kids in rancid B&Bs and turning to food banks while Sir Philip Green swans round on a floating hotel, thanks to tory tax breaks."

TBH now I'm a bit worried that her whole GoFundMe campaign has been a Corbyn backed operation the whole time, designed to demoralize those of us who are actually against self-ID. I can be paranoid though, but it is a worry with politics being the way it is these days

A bit too tinfoil hat for me, but even if that was the case I'd say it's backfired spectacularly. Rather than demoralising us it appears to have set a lot of things in motion, including a banding together of women from across all political parties and an increasing amount of spotlight shining on the issues that most of the public don't even know about yet.

As more and more women find out what it really means for them, and it isn't just 'being nice' we will see an even bigger backlash than we have going on right now.

I'll call it right now. The first party to give disenfranchised women a strong message that they oppose self-ID will win the next election.

I've just emailed my MP & linked him to this thread.
See if I get a response....

The tories' murderous and brutal attack on ordinary people has hit women particularly hard: disabled women, women carers and lone parents. Women are living with their kids in rancid B&Bs and turning to food banks while Sir Philip Green swans round on a floating hotel, thanks to tory tax breaks."

I will follow you Jennifer!!

You are warrior!!

I have just sent the Spectator article(s) to my son, who got very jittery that 'he's misgendered people!', and to my BIL, who had 'not heard anything about any of that' ('that' encompassing males on women-only shortlists, males in women's contact sports, males in women-only wards, males in women-only refuges, males in women-only loos, the rash of schoolchildren coming out as transgender, etc, etc, etc... you name it, he hadn't come across it. I think he was quite glad to be allowed to drink his tea and go home).

And yet I think it's true that if Greening and May said "ok we have listened and we will not be proposing any changes to the GRA - we recognise the need to support the rights of transgender people but must work on a way to do this in such a way that women's rights are not harmed", some left-leaning women would vote for them.

I'm a disabled woman and carer.

I really dislike the implication that any political point scoring is more important than this issue.

What good are services meant for me going to do, when my sex doesn't exist in anything but name? The word 'woman' will be unrecognisable and unquantifiable. How can I access things meant to help me then?

I will eat out of a food bank happily for the rest of my days if that is the only alternative to having to give up my rights, to spaces designed to keep me safe from male misconduct, and to my own freedom of thought. I will never, ever believe that a penis is anything but male and they can't make me.

Heidi Alexander is against us, if you're keeping a list.

I'll call it right now. The first party to give disenfranchised women a strong message that they oppose self-ID will win the next election.

That would be UKIP curried. I don't see it happening somehow.

Has Diane Abbott said anything?

makeourfuture we are fully aware that Labour and Corbyn can do anything and you would still follow them.

must be time for bots to sign off for the day soon

Well said, Curried.

UKIP aren't an option - they'd do away with maternity rights as soon as blink.

But any political party that aren't lunatics, this:

*I'll say it right now. The first party to give disenfranchised women a strong message that they oppose self-ID will get my vote.

The first party to give disenfranchised women a strong message that they oppose self-ID will get my vote.

Same - as long as it's not UKIP

For those who can't read the times articles here is something else JT said:

Interviewed on The Andrew Marr Show, Corbyn said that he’d talk to Bellos and other feminists to try to reach a compromise. But it is a tough circle to square. Harriet Harman too supports self-ID but also wants stop men exploiting their access to women’s spaces. But how, Harriet, if they’ve got every right to be there?

Between the two opposing camps is the unscalable wall of biology

This is the thing, isn't it? There is just no compromise to be had when we are being expected to deny biological reality. So, yes, the first of the actual electable parties who gets off the fence in favour of women will get the votes.

I'll call it right now. The first party to give disenfranchised women a strong message that they oppose self-ID will win the next election.

I think of the two mainstream parties this is true.

I will not vote UKIP. But this is the closest I've come to even considering it. Admittedly that is not very close, but I think it could win them votes from some.

The tories' murderous and brutal attack

Who here will refute this?

I add a caveat to the point the first party to call against self-ID will win, which is AS LONG AS PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF IT. Get talking to people.

Who here will refute this?

Even if the answer to that is no one, are you not hearing the fact that this issue overrides that because, as CurryNoodles said, what does it matter if the class of "women" is meaningless?

I did mean between the two main parties.

And I think it is snowballing now, as long as we keep nudging it along it'll be smashing into the general public awareness soon.

I'm still waiting to hear back from my MP (tory - marginal area) who I emailed yesterday outlining my concerns, what the changes will mean, exactly how the public is going to react as soon as they are aware of it and that the party who steps up to support women first will get my vote.

this issue overrides that

Those at the sharp end will draw confort from the knowledge they are part of a larger issue.

Like Curried who has said she is both disabled and a carer?

I don't move in particularly political circles - except once a year when we see DH's friends who work in politics (Labour). Haven't dared raised this with them.

No one IRL is aware of this issue btw except one of my NCT friends who posts gender critical stuff on facebook that everyone agrees with. I explained self ID to DH and he actually didn't believe me as he thought it was too preposterous. We enjoy the guardian but will stop buying it. Cannot vote Labour now. Who do we vote for?!

I guess we don't vote and state why on the ballot paper until one of the electable parties breaks cover?