So DD's organ donor card just arrived...

[Battleax]

...and she waved it at me, so I said "Right you're supposed to have a chat about your wishes with your family." She, continuing to waggle it, says "This is me telling you about my wishes". So I said "Okay, but have you thought about your womb and the trans thing?"

Turns out she doesn't want a man using her womb after her death.

So that's fine, but it made me think; should we all be stipulating this in writing to the organ donor organisation?

Right battleax and what medical professional is going to put themselves forward to do that procedure which is a) probably impossible and b) a cause of further operations ie if a pregnancy did succeed you'd need a c section obviously

It won't happen.

The self same people who are vocal about the right to retain tackle are also banging on about womb transplants

People say all kinds of crazy shit on twitter. It is totally unregulated. I think for the sake of maintaining credibility, focus on what actual politicians are saying and respond to that. They might be banging on about it but it's biologically impossible at present and I can't really see it becoming possible in the near future.

Who has the chapter and verse on the HCP who told a transwomen she couldn't have a cervical smear? Enid needs to hear it.

HCPs are being disciplined now, in the NHS for not ignoring science to indulge fantasy.

@Enidthecat if you read my post you'll see I didn't say that people's wishes are always respected. It's fairly obvious that often they are not. That's not the point I was making.

What makes me, me, is my brain, in the system of my body. Biology dictates everything about me. How my brain developed and was shaped by my environment has produced my personality. What else could it have been?

Battleax by name ...

People say all kinds of crazy shit on twitter. It is totally unregulated. I think for the sake of maintaining credibility, focus on what actual politicians are saying and respond to that

Yes focus on what politicians are saying and be scared. Also follow the tweets back to the TRA campaign groups and worry.

Well you've just mentioned your environment which is nothing to do with your biology is it. Your family can change you, friends, experiences, all sorts.
Youre not who you are exclusively because of your brain or your reproductive system.

It's entirely plausible that people are "born in the wrong body"

Bear in mind that if England moves to a 'presumed consent' organ donation system, as is proposed, it won't be a case of "I choose not to donate my uterus" it will be a case of, your womb is ours and you never stipulated otherwise.

This isn’t what the thread is about, but it’s really important to clarify that that’s not how a presumed consent system works at all, and scaremongering like that isn’t helpful.

The next of kin still need to agree to organ donation, it’s just that you start from the position that the person didn’t say they didn’t want to be a donor so we assume they want to be unless the next if Lin say otherwise. At no point do the organs “belong to the state”.

You simply cannot make such a categorical statement. There are hard and soft opt out options and you have no assurance to offer anyone for what you are asserting.

The whole point of opt out is that it removes any reference to the donor explicitly consenting, and passes the decision to the relatives OR the state. And once explicit donor consent is deemed unnecessary, any further changes can pass unopposed.

If you have some information supporting what you claim, please share. As far as I know all options are under consultation.

Either way, in an opt out system a donor's explicit wishes about their organs can be overridden by family and/or state if there is no record of those wishes on whatever database is proposed to keep the information.

No wish to scaremonger at all. These are genuine considerations for women around consent over their own bodies, alive and dead.

Yes focus on what politicians are saying and be scared. Also follow the tweets back to the TRA campaign groups and worry.

I do but I have never heard even the remotest suggestion that wombs will be taken from women and given to men.

We all know that Transwomen would insist they are a much higher priority than any lowly XX chromosomes person.

Really? Every single transwoman would do that?

If we tried to demonise every single woman, or every person of a specific skin colour or nationality, or every disabled person in this way, we would be rightly called out on it. Yet somehow because it's transwomen we're talking about it's OK?

If science ever gets that far then what does it matter? I certainly won't be using my womb after I'm dead and if it can bring someone else the same happiness that my family has brought me, then why not? But all this is ifs and buts. Even if science did get this far, I can't see the NHS donating wombs when things like IVF is barely covered by them.

@Enidthecat I said, how my brain was shaped by my environment. Meaning that my brain developed in response to the stimuli it received. How my brain/body responded is entirely down to my unique biology, how could it not be?

To believe someone is in the wrong body requires a belief in souls/essence or how ever you want to describe it.

Is your objection solely to transwomen, OP? Suppose, for the sake of argument, science reached the point when a working uterus could be transplanted into a man, and a non-trans man wanted to bear a child - would you object to that?

I'm OK with my liver going to an alcoholic transwoman, to replace the one damaged by the illness.

Or, hypothetically, mine/my male loved one's genitals/reproductive organs going to one of the many transpersons who regret the medical procedures they were led to believe would cure their mental illnesses/dysphoria, and want to detransition.

But I don't want my reproductive organs being used to further the likelihood of successful transplants in to a body that would never have naturally had them, because of it's being the opposite sex.

So maybe some people's biology is different than yours? Maybe how their biology reacts makes them feel like the opposite sex than their body. Yours makes you feel like you after all.

The possibility of male people being given donor wombs is something to be discussed at the level of medical ethics committees, not something individual donors should be having to worry about.

It's a long way off but there is political pressure to make it a reality and so I think it's a discussion which needs to be had. I am absolutely opposed to the idea. It would be a colossal waste of a viable organ and all the associated resources required for the transplant and its maintenance for what? At best an extremely high risk, medically intensive pregnancy when the male person could far more easily become a parent by saving his sperm.

OTOH there are a growing number of female detransitioners, many of whom will have had a hysterectomy at a very young age in order to avoid the increased risks of gynecological cancers caused by taking testosterone. If the tech advanced to the stage where womb transplants, and pregnancies in transplanted wombs, were truly viable in female bodies I'd be quite happy for my womb to go to one of them (theoretically, I think mine's probably a bit too old and clapped out now in any case).

Suppose, for the sake of argument, science reached the point when a working uterus could be transplanted into a man, and a non-trans man wanted to bear a child - would you object to that?

I would, for exactly the same reasons.

Is your objection solely to transwomen, OP? Suppose, for the sake of argument, science reached the point when a working uterus could be transplanted into a man, and a non-trans man wanted to bear a child - would you object to that?

Yes, of course. It's sheer craziness for any XY male to pursue this, and unnecessary to carry a child in order to become a parent.

Yes, @Enidthecat. But that doesn't mean they were born into the wrong body and their soul should have been placed into an opposite sex body at conception. It means that they have an issue with how their body is, like many people do for other reasons.

I would think that if science did ever get to that point, we would also be looking at artificial wombs being created or grown from existing DNA.

As far as your argument goes, it's pretty poor. If you are okay with men making a full transition into a women physically (inc. gender reassignment surgery), then why is adding the womb so contenscious?

I am completely onboard with concerns around trans-women who keep their penises, but I have no qualms at all about a man choosing to live as a women - body and soul.

The sad thing though is it is completely hypothetical - it's more likely (even womb transplants even become a common thing) that a womb would be given to another woman. If that could happen, I would welcome that.

Whether it would be given to a transperson is far, far down the line. If its for pure transphobic reasons (so still unwilling to donate to a gender-reassigned transwoman) then you can withdraw your consent at that time. If it's concerns that it will go to a woman with a dick - well I can't see that being provided in the very long term future.

So they have issues with their body and they would be a happier person if they lived as the opposite sex - who are you to say that's wrong?

I have a little scientific knowledge, and none of it medical but isn’t this in the same realm as head transplants? Theoretically possible, but not in my lifetime.
Its more than wombs. Surely it’s bones and muscles too. Basically an entire lower half transplant.
And the research into this will not only benefit male to female trans folk.
Relatively speaking there has been so little progress in female health I would appault any research.
How do you feel about face transplants op? Much more feasible and much more likely that a trans person suffers an injury that requires a face transplant. Would you be unhappy they were using your tissue to look more female?

DD got hers yesterday . Nothing about wombs to transgender patients. You can update your wishes on the website should that become a thing. My first thought was how wonderful and forward thinking of my DD. Very proud of her.

@Enidthecat I don't say it's wrong. Live however you like (as long as it isn't harming anyone else), and I'll fight for your right to do so.

So then you must be on board with womb transplanting because thats not hurting anyone is It?