Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

I have just skim read The Female Eunuch and like everyone else, the stand out line to me was that men hate us but we aren't aware of the extent, and neither are they!!

Do you think this is true?? My DH, my late father and my brother, all immensely like/d and love/d the women in their lives. I hate to think it is true, but if it is, I want to know! I want to know my enemy.

Fab video!

@TellsEveryoneRealFacts
One of the best videos I've seen. Thanks for posting. More please.

Yes - divorced beheaded died divorced beheaded survived.

Quite frightening really - the very real threat to their lives the wives of Henry faced.

You were only protected if you a foreign dignitary - and killing you could damage diplomatic relations. Ann of Cleves was in great fear of her life - but she played it well - she placated Henry. How many women reading this can relate to that? We live with male violence against us. In Henry VIII's time and now.

Interesting (and v sad) fact that not many people know - Catharine Parr survived Henry VIII and went on to remarry very quickly. She died in childbirth, giving birth to her fist child. So she didn't even outlive Henry for that long - such was the lot of women in those times.

Terf - I've mentioned it before, so apologies if you already know, but the book "Game of Queens" is excellent if you are interested in women and power in the 16th century. It's by Sarah Gristwood

Thank you Olennas. I love Mary Beard too - so am interested in her book recommendation by Carrie too

My typing! First child not fist child obviously.

Mary Beard's book is excellent, I bought it last week. You would like it I am sure.

I thought that video was awful, a radical feminist wanting to do away with gender.
Radical feminism wanting to do away with motherhood and mothering, are we on Mumsnet or in the twilight zone.

I guess one example of how men are able to love their wives and daughters yet express disdain for the rest of them is Brendan Cox. Hailed as a saint for raising his kids when his wife was murdered, it has now been revealed for the second time that he has been accused of being a disgusting sex pest who harasses women. The first lot of allegations seem to have been brushed under the carpet as at the time Jo Cox was not well known. I know they haven't been proven in a court, but people don't generally agree to leave their jobs in the face of spurious allegations.

I thought that video was awful, a radical feminist wanting to do away with gender.
Radical feminism wanting to do away with motherhood and mothering, are we on Mumsnet or in the twilight zone.

Do away with socially constructed gender, yes. That doesn't mean doing away with love or caring, just reconfiguring it so that it isn't the job of women and doesn't work to their disadvantage.

In any case the video is completely contradictory

A few people on here just hate men in general because of what other men in the past have done. Fair enough the likes of @bewildered, @lettuce etc, you’re entitled to your bigoted uninformed opinion, just don’t try and dress it up as anything intellectual or as a movement of any sort, putting a label on blind ignorance doesn’t make it any more acceptable.

Do away with socially constructed gender, yes. That doesn't mean doing away with love or caring, just reconfiguring it so that it isn't the job of women and doesn't work to their disadvantage. I loved/love that job, as do many other women. Some women want nothing to do with being a mother or mothering and in this day and age they have a choice not to, which is just fine with me. Yes some women are looked down on for that choice, which is wrong IMHO but if radical feminist had their way, it'd be the other way around, in fact, any radical feminists on this thread, what do you think of SAHM by choice?

I think their heads would explode @vitology
Even though you’ve made a choice yourself

I loved/love that job, as do many other women. Some women want nothing to do with being a mother or mothering and in this day and age they have a choice not to, which is just fine with me. Yes some women are looked down on for that choice, which is wrong IMHO but if radical feminist had their way, it'd be the other way around, in fact, any radical feminists on this thread, what do you think of SAHM by choice?

I can only speak for myself. I would make it a genuine choice. So I would ensure that there is high quality and available childcare, enabling women to remain at work. If women wanted to stay at home and provide the care themselves, I would ensure that they were financially compensated for this in the form of state subsidies, including additional payments towards a pension plan. I would also ensure that employment policies were not based around the assumption that the worker has no dependants. This would mean increased flexibility, on-site childcare, working from home etc. Essentially, my ultimate aim would be to give care the same status as economic work. This might then lead to a shift in who provides it.

I loved/love that job, as do many other women.

Also, it's very cutesy and lovely when you are talking about childcare. But actually nearly all care for elderly and disabled adults is also provided by women. There is a social expectation on women to be a 'good daughter' and provide care for ageing parents for instance, often balancing this with caring for their own children. If you look at less palatable caring scenarios, it's easier to see that it's not a genuine choice. As the state pension gradually erodes and probably disappears, there will be an increasingly larger problem of female poverty in old age. 50% of marriages break down so women cannot rely on men to provide either. My wish is to reward people who care properly and to not simply put an expectation on women to do it for free and suffer the consequences. That does involve challenging the current perception of gender because that is based on an image of women as carers.

Not true Vitalogy and overnight. Quite a few of the women here are SAHM or have chosen be at one period of their lives.

I've been both at various points in the last 20 years depending on what has worked best for our family set up at the time. I still believe in the principles of radical feminism and am able to recognise that none of my choices were made in a vacuum.

I don't personally believe that SAHM/WOHM is a deciding factor in whether you can be a radical feminist. For me RF is the analysis of class structures and oppression and the understanding of what leads to the choices women make.

I'm a rad fem SAHM. And fwiw, I have found the rad fems on this board far more supportI've than anyone else.

And with regards to the OP, I am not sure whether men hate women or whether they are indifferent. Plus I am not sure which is worse.

I think their heads would explode I just want to give them a big hug and make all the hurt go away, only joking! Not.

it's very cutesy and lovely when you are talking about childcare. Well, that's patronising.

I've had experience of elderly care too. The word you use is NO.

I suppose it depends of the strength of the women to stand up for herself and what choices she makes in life.

So many straw men (or straw women) on here.

One of the central points of radical feminism is critiquing the underlying assumptions of patriarchy. And one of those underlying assumptions is that work is only real work if it's paid work, hence motherhood (which as we all know is incredibly hard and very real work, as well as very rewarding) isn't "real work" in the eyes of patriarchy. Radical feminism accepts that it is real work, very valuable work, and very female work (because it is women who gestate, birth and then feed babies). I have never seen a form of radical feminism which invisibilises or devalues motherhood, quite the reverse in fact.

In dismantling gender what radical feminism seeks to do is dismantle the idea that women are mothers because we're innately nurturing (and the related view that sets nurturing up in contrast to, and exclusive of, "masculine" virtues like rationality, decisiveness, detachment). Everyone can be nurturing, rational, decisive, detached, engaged, caring, empathetic... to varying degrees as personality, upbringing and circumstances dictate. Women are mothers because of biology - hopefully then nurturing, caring, empathetic mothers because it's in the nature of looking after a child that one ought to be (but also rational in order to make good decisions about them, determined, detached when you have to say to them "you're not ill, you're pretending to be ill to get out of school today...")

The idea that radical feminism is somehow against stay at home mothers because radical feminists say they want to dismantle gender (an oppressive set of sex stereotypes) is, frankly, a complete crock of shit and utter (and wilful) misrepresentation of radical feminism.

Well, that's patronising.

It's not patronising actually. Not many women see elderly care as their role in life, yet they end up taking it on.

I've had experience of elderly care too. The word you use is NO.

Wow. Well that IS patronising to the thousands of women who feel morally obliged to do it and perhaps are worried about their parents or relatives being mistreated if they do not do it themselves. There are so many complex reasons why people decide to take on caring obligations. You may be able to say NO and put your mum in a state-run home, but many others do not feel able to do so.

I note that there is no mention in your response about my wish to make things better for those who provide care and to reward them properly, making it a genuine choice. That in fact radfem is not about hating SAHMs at all.

One of the central points of radical feminism is critiquing the underlying assumptions of patriarchy. And one of those underlying assumptions is that work is only real work if it's paid work, hence motherhood (which as we all know is incredibly hard and very real work, as well as very rewarding) isn't "real work" in the eyes of patriarchy. Radical feminism accepts that it is real work, very valuable work, and very female work (because it is women who gestate, birth and then feed babies). I have never seen a form of radical feminism which invisibilises or devalues motherhood, quite the reverse in fact.

This. All. Of. This.

Hairyball yes, a more articulate version of what I was trying to say (I haven't had enough coffee yet).