Feminism chat for right wingers

[LeslieKnopefan]

Wondered if anyone else who is on the right like myself (see myself as centre right) wanted to chat about feminism.

I noticed there was a chat going for those in the Labour Party and thought it might be nice for anyone else like myself who is on the right but see them self as a feminist.

To introduce myself to begin... I’m in my mid 30s and always been right wing for as long as I can remember and am an active member of the Tory Party. I didn’t until recently see myself as a feminist because I always had negative connotations about the word and felt it wasn’t an issue that effected me.

But now that I’m older I’ve realised that feminism is a broad church and it is an issue that I’m not only interested in but actually there has been times in my life where being a woman has held me back or where I have been judged in a way that a man wouldn’t have been judged.

The areas that I’m currently most interested in are trans issues and how the Conservative party will deal with the many grey areas that trans rights brings with it.

I’m also concerned about the way we raise girls (and boys!!) such as the seperation of toys and the pinkness of everything for girls that we didn’t see when I was growing up. I know myself that I will say to little girls how pretty they look but wouldn’t say that to a boy, I am trying to stop myself saying such things but I realise how ingrained this is.

Finally, an issue that hasn’t really changed since I was growing up is the idea that men that have many sexual partners are great whilst women are sluts or slags. Again, I can’t say I’ve always been innocent of this especially at school where it seemed to be the norm to talk badly of girls who had lost their virginity but not boys.

Anyway that’s enough from me right now. If there is anyone else on the right here who wishes to join in please do :)

I get the whole thing about women being disproportionately affected by govt social & welfare decisions, and I get that we are at a disadvantage due to our sex.

However, that does not mean that all women are unable to strive & thrive - I have a problem with the 'all women are...' narrative of the left sometimes.

(Don't know if that makes sense, sorry - it does in my head!)

(Last post was a reply to Miffer)

However, that does not mean that all women are unable to strive & thrive

All women are oppressed because of their sex. A woman can thrive but it will find it harder than a man with all other things being equal.

I don't think anybody on the left things "all women" cannot thrive, as has been pointed out we have both a female PM and head of state.

I don't think political leanings affect how feminist you are - it seems bizarre to me that someone would suggest being right wing/Tory voter is incompatible with feminism.

^ This. No matter what our politics we can all care about feminism. At the end of the day things that effect a Labour woman are likely to effect a Tory woman. I think stereotypes that Tory woman are all home counties middle class, no money worry type woman has been what has made others think we can't be feminists. We need to show that Tories are as diverse a group as the UK is.

Someone else posted about this group on another thread, but Women2Win are interesting (they are the group co-founded by TM to increase numbers of female Tory MPs)

How can it not be? How can women thrive in a society that is run for the benefits of markets and profit? I am honestly asking.

@Miffer I can't think of a society that's any better. Every single time socialism hits a critical mass it always fails spectacularly. I dearly wish it wasn't true as socialism and communism can work in small communes and smaller groups, it just scales incredibly badly. You know who ends up worse off when these socialist systems crash and burn? That's right women, taking a look at Venezuala we're seeing women crossing the border into Colombia to prostitute themselves in order to provide food for their family.

It's the same story time and time again, increasted state power, unsustainable spending, totalitarian locking down the whole thing comes crashing down. In fact women are often used precisely to shore up state power, promised the earth but the earth is very rarely delivered.

You hear this statistic that 1% of the world's wealthy own 50% of the worlds wealth? And this is true, and will increase, but what is failed to be mentioned is that as this happens the amount of relative wealth goes up too. So say for example as that's been happening the number of people subsisting off a dollar a day was around 50% 30-40 years ago, now it's like 22-23% and continues to fall. Women will overall do better the more this trend continues.

In terms of women's rights the two most significant factors are access to education and reproductive rights. The more these two things go up the better the country is as a whole across the board. For everyone, including men.

How can women thrive in a society that is run for the benefits of markets and profit? I am honestly asking.

How can women / men / the country thrive if not for the benefits of market and profit? It's all about The Economy, stupid.(to coin a phrase)

I'm vaguely on the right and used to think that I was a feminist. I've gone off the term, I'd prefer to call myself an Equalist (to cover, sex, race and any other potential division going)

Every single time socialism hits a critical mass it always fails spectacularly

So does all out capitalism.

There's virtue somewhere in the middle.

I am a conservative voter (would never vote labour), gender critical and a feminist. I admired Margaret Thatcher as a child growing up, she seemed so strong and sure of herself. I think TM is doing a good job in the face of some serious shit being flung her way.

The self ID bollocks is seriously damaging to all women, protecting our sex is more important than politics.

CritEqual

All those examples are capitalist, capitalist with Governments controlling markets instead (or as well as) corporations but capitalism all the same.

The market is still king (see what I did there?). As purits said "It's all about The Economy, stupid". I can think of nothing more patriarchal than the ideology of free market capitalism.

I agree about the scaling up so don't scale up.... but I'll stop because I am not talking about party politics which is clearly what this thread is about.

Let me wind it back.

How can one call themselves a feminist and vote for a party whose economic policies hit women so disproportionately?

Why is free market capitalism patriarchal?
I ask as a woman who has thrived both developmentally and financially under these arrangements. I can see that without the ability to control my fertility that would be difficult. But we have that now. Why are women less fitted than men to thrive in the free market?

Because in many instances women are the ones left holding the baby. Literally.

Even today, on FB, a friend was complaining about being a single mother without a steady job. Even though she is highly educated.

I struggle to reconcile the term feminist with right wing politics. I’m not saying you can’t be Right wing and support women’s rights/ equality but when right wing (and centre right) policies have much more of a detrimental effect on women (particularly in relation to social security and tax credits) then I’m not sure how someone who supports these damaging policies can say they support women’s rights.

Wrt policies which damage women, I think the tax credit scheme was damaging to women as it created a welfare trap.
It was well intentioned, but ill thought out.

I am a feminist, who happens to be right of centre - the two are not incompatible.
I'm a believer in the 'teach a (wo)man to fish' ethos as mentioned upthread.

I believe in listening to both sides of the argument and also believe that it does nobody any flavours to become surrounded by an echo chamber of political views. I value free speech above all things. I value human rights for men, women and trans people. I believe children should be left out of all of this and trans kids are victims of child abuse (I think trans people are being used to further an agenda which takes away women's rights and sterilises gay and autistic people). Women make up just over half the population. We need to stick together on this. Self ID erases what it means to be female. Being female is not an idea or theory. It's a biological reality, women have been literally screwed for centuraries because of our biology. If these changes to the GRA go through, it won't matter how any of us think politically. It won't matter how we feel about the NHS, Grammar schools or the benefit system. Truth is we won't be listened to.

I went the opposite direction to you in that I went from calling myself a Feminist (up until a couple of years ago) to no longer doing so (when I felt the name had been so far subverted by some people that I could no longer use it). I do identify as Right Wing (primarily economically, somewhat socially).

I'd say the biggest difference it might make is that if you're Right Wing you're more likely to focus on Equality of Opportunity than Equality of Outcome. Whereas the Left tend to be the other way around.

I expect the terms are familiar but if not, the Equality of Opportunity attitude would be something like "Women must have just as much opportunity of becoming an MP as men." And the Equality of Outcome counterpart would be: "MPs must be equal numbers of women as men."

I don't like the latter. I think it's Identity Politics and actively destructive to impose that kind of top-down approach. But it's a good illustration of where I think some people find Right Wing and Feminist to be in conflict. Right Wing feminism tends to be very old school. It's all about individual rights and eliminating discrimination. Left Wing feminism (and I'm about to betray my bias but at least I acknowledge it) tends to be the more 3rd Wave 'my team must have equal power'. It's individualistic vs. group, essentially. And as someone who finds sex rather arbitrary (the category, not the fun stuff. ) and less defining of who we are than our individual choices, I naturally lean heavily towards the former.

As modern 3rd Wave Feminism has become almost entirely slanted towards the latter I felt I could no longer use the term for myself.

I'm dropping in to listen.

Wrt policies which damage women, I think the tax credit scheme was damaging to women as it created a welfare trap.

Working families tax credit? How?

And what about the women whose work isn't enough to pay for child care? Starve?

What do you think is better for women?

I expect the terms are familiar but if not, the Equality of Opportunity attitude would be something like "Women must have just as much opportunity of becoming an MP as men." And the Equality of Outcome counterpart would be: "MPs must be equal numbers of women as men."

I agree - that's a good way of explaining it Oldman.

I identify with Equality of Opportunity more than Equality of Outcome.

We all need to put the politics to one side. Our definition as female, you know the ones who bleed, give birth, left with the childcare responsibilities and all the rest of it, could be ignored!

*Working families tax credit? How?

And what about the women whose work isn't enough to pay for child care? Starve?

What do you think is better for women?*

Tax credits created a trap, whereby you were often worse off working than not, or keeping the working hours down.

Women who's work isn't enough for childcare - of course I don't think they should starve - there should be better childcare support, but also wages need to improve.

For as long as the govt are subsidising wages via tax credits then the trap continues.

I'd agree crony capitalism is the devil's own asshole, and in fact has this unholy relationship to socialism. It drives down wages and increases the power of the state wether it's left or right that's in power.

Where I think leftist feminism is dangerous is where it breeds such a blinkered one dimensional view. Sure you have a wage gap which would do well to close, but hand in hand with that is the gender tax gap whereby women take more out in welfare relative to men who are commensurately taxed more in aggregate. This creates an own goal where resentment amongst men drives a desire to roll back women's rights.

All that has essentially happened is that many women have replaced dependence on a man to dependence on the state, and given that we're still talking a state that is still overwhelmingly male you are quite literally as a left wing feminist propping up a patriarchy and everything else is ultimately just piddling around in the margins.

I can think of nothing more patriarchal than the ideology of free market capitalism.

May I introduce you to Islamic Theocracies and Islamic Monarchies? And for Western and Eastern examples, the Nazis and Communists (Soviet and Chinese) both of whom placed great emphasis on traditional gender roles.

Modern Capitalist nations are some of the least patriarchal nations you can find. Money is what matters.

But wages aren't improving. Child care support is getting worse and costs more.

Women whose husbands piss off are actually seriously rescued by the tax credit system.

Or they were. And their children.

Because HMRC will go after a Look North presenter for half a million, but not half a million men for child support avoidance.

Modern Capitalist nations are some of the least patriarchal nations you can find

There are no pure money economies. They are always embedded to some degree in social obligations and social relations. As any fule kno.