We act from deep and well-thought-out conviction. But...

[JellySlice]

Today we look back appalled at the women who fought against giving women the vote.

In 100 years' time will history look back on us, on gender-critical women, in the same way?

You can go wider than that. There must be many things now taken for granted, by women and by men, which will horrify - or amuse - our descendants. The difficult bit is spotting them.

No Jelly. Because, by definition, men are not and never will be women. Never mind history, I'm simply on the right side of biology.

The practice of using expensively collected, cleaned and piped water for gardens may be one of them.

Are you Owen Jones, OP?

Hell no! What makes you say that?

None of you ever wonder ? I’ve wondered even though I don’t believe I am wrong.

Today in the Guardian a woman who has to cover her hair from the male gaze announced that trans people are the most oppressed people in the UK.

Sure, Andrew, there are plenty of selfish things we are doing to the planet. There are plenty of things that are now dealt with with a subtle delicacy that was once unimaginable, such as keyhole surgery, and we now look back on what was once cutting edge amazing medicine, as hideously dangerous and aggressive treatment.

But I'm talking specifically about the new assault on women. The Doublethink that may be set in law. The destruction of all that we have gained in the past 100 years.

Yes I’ve wondered too OP. If we stop questioning everything we’re in danger of becoming a cult too.

But questioning has actually crystallised my thoughts. I am in no doubt that anyone with X chromosomes is male, so is not female. Women are adult human females, so male humans cannot be women. Saying otherwise is on the wrong side of biology.

I have mused before about whether this is part of a really difficult transitional period and eventually, say in another 100 years, people will be much more genderless or genderfluid therefore male/female socialisation will be less disparate from each other. Maybe (a big maybe) reducing the overall incident of gendered violence.

But then I think biology will always be biology. Women won't stop getting pregnant, men, in particular young men, won't lose strong sexual urges.

Realistically as things look currently it's going in the opposite direction with gender stereotypes becoming very fixed.

I won't be around to find out, which is annoying but on the whole I probably should be grateful for in case it does all go Handmaids Tale.

No, they won't, Jelly. They will look back on all the trans cultists, and all the people rushing to medialise and sterilise children in the same way we look back and wonder how Jimmy Saville ever got away with it.

Who are the ones having to organise in secret now? Who are the ones called "ugly lesbians"? Who are the ones being attacked in public? We are. We're the sodding political descendants of the suffragettes, not the descendants of the ones who opposed suffrage.

We're the sodding political descendants of the suffragettes, not the descendants of the ones who opposed suffrage.

I sincerely hope so.

However, we are the ones opposing a change in the law, and in society.

I wonder if we are heading for a new ' dark ages ', where science is lost and belief is all that matters.

There is a massive drive from the fundamentalist for creationism to be taken as fact and ' stop telling us what to believe'. It's coming from the US but it's here in small pockets.

The flat earth society is getting new members all the time.

The trans lobby probably also consider themselves descendants of the Suffragettes, wanting access to the spaces of the other sex.

Um WiseUpJanetWeiss, males have XY not XX.

I'll blame the autocarrot.

I wonder if we are heading for a new ' dark ages ', where science is lost and belief is all that matters.

A while ago someone linked to a really interesting post about this, I think on a footie forum of all places!

It was a very compelling argument.

I think it is possible that in the future we may all be able to choose or adapt our bodies to the extent that transgenderism will mean that people can actually Self-ID and match their physical form to that. I would find that a bit crazy but If it happens then I could see a way that might work out pretty well across the sexes.

For now, am I sure I want to be fighting this and in this side? Yes. As much as anything I'm fighting against whatever it is that is making women afraid to speak up, making MPs even frightened of debating genuine concerns, creating a narrative that women are a violent threat to transpeople when in reality it is male violence that is more likely to be the threat. I don't want to live in a society that makes laws and decisions that way. That doesn't lead anywhere good, for anyone.

When I look at what’s happened in Canada, I feel we have to do everything we can to stop it going any further here.
There are a few TAs with a similar mindset as Morgane Oger, it’s quite honestly terrifying.
They want GC people ( but mostly Women) silenced and / or criminalised.
There’s no way I’m going to stand back and watch it happen, I have a feeling we have a huge fight on our hands

JellySlice For the avoidance of doubt I entirely agree. I regard self-identification without surgery as self-indulgent nonsense - and I hope I would been one of those who a century ago combined an X-chromosome with supporting universal adult suffrage.

*Um WiseUpJanetWeiss, males have XY not XX.

I'll blame the autocarrot.*

That’s very generous of you. I will blame the wine and the fact I need new specs.

Bugger. Can’t even bold properly. ☺️☺️

eventually, say in another 100 years, people will be much more genderless or genderfluid therefore male/female socialisation will be less disparate from each other. Maybe (a big maybe) reducing the overall incident of gendered violence.

The only way I see something like that working: This Perfect Dayy* (which is back in print BTW).

I wonder this. Will there be a horrible period of extra violence due to self identification, then more CCTV (some people are much more willing to sext so will more surveillance be considered that bad?), then stricter laws/sentences for any violence.

Running alongside that children being taught that although there are biological differences between humans each one usually identifies with one gender, that starts with how their parents treat them, teaching them about going to the toilet, then about periods... Sometimes someone decides that their parts made the wrong decision about their gender and they can then identify as the other gender.

Then people of all ages get more comfortable with seeing different types of bodies in places like changing rooms and that most of the time everyone just showers, gets changed and swims.

Unfortunately I worry that the first bit is utopia.

Parents not parts in second paragraph

I'd not heard of that book Jelly thanks for the link.