Which women-only spaces do you use, and how would their removal affect you?

[catscan]

I am new to this. I’m struggling to think of any, personally.

At the swimming pool, I use communal showers with my costume on, then change in a cubicle. At the gym, I tend to just walk home in my sweaty clothes rather than use the communal shower/changing area - I’d love for cubicles to be put in and change in the toilets if I have to. I used to change in changing rooms at an old gym but felt uncomfortable.

I don’t use the women-only slot at the doctors or the pool (though would if the timing suited me better). I have private healthcare so had a private room last time I had an operation; prior to that I’ve had an uneventful stay in a mixed ward (with the exception of a children’s ward with a violent eight year old boy). I’ve never been in prison. Some of my gym classes tend to be women only, but men can, and sometimes do join. I’ve been in a book club with mostly women and one man. My doctors are male, including a gynaecologist. Didn’t go to boarding school; did stay in an allocated all-girls room on school trips, but an allocated mixed room on uni trips.

I do use women’s toilets but have no issue with using gender neutral ones and prefer cubicles with their own mirror and sink. At hostels I’ve always paid for private rooms because I wouldn’t want to share with men or women (and if it came to it, would choose whichever was quietest/emptiest).

Am I missing anywhere?

No, I'm not joking. My cultural background isn't British and I find this is a moral panic over here, but completely normal where my family comes from.

You are happy to use to gender neutral loos. What I have seen happen, is that male and female loos are being re-labelled gender neutral urinals and gender neutral toilets. So men have the right and ability to use 100% of the loos in a venue. Are females happy to use a gender neutral urinal? Of course not, so we, meanwhile, are restricted to (presumably) 50% of the loos. Which we are obliged to share with all and sundry. Is this fair and reasonable?

slug

You make a good point about the ladies' loos. There are often not enough of them and consequently, long queues.

Maybe we should let men start using them - maybe they'd give more of a toss and they'd build more?

I would not use mixed changing rooms in shops, most have flimsy curtains and even if they were replaced with doors, they would probably not be full height.
Toilets: I have used unisex loos in France, and can do the special "not looking" at the men using the urinal. They were horrible- even with a full height door I felt very vulnerable and the smell! So no, I will not be using mixed loos.
I would have an issue with mixed wards in hospital, obviously when you are ill you don't have much choice, but the thought of those curtains being swished open in a ward with men staring- awful.
I always ask for a female hcp for "women's" things - ime males are much more likely to be rough or unsympathetic than females.

Just because you are not worried about these scenarios does not mean that other women shouldn't be.

Oh and girl guides? To my horror as a guide leader for many years, we are now a single gender organisation, not single sex:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

And don't think the scouts are any better either:

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

We don't ban lesbians or gay men from single-sex changing rooms so I'm not sure why the assumption is there about men changing with women.

Because in the UK almost all violent crime is committed by men. Because in the UK almost all sexual crime is committed by men. Because is the UK men are a danger to women.

I really cant understand why some women cannot see why in our current society that to reduce the likelihood of harm and for girls and women to maintain privacy and dignity that their is a need for some spaces boundaried by biological sex. Just because you personally dont have an issue with stripping off in front of both sexes (naturist?l) can you not maybe think a bit outside yourselves ie young girls and older men ? I think most respecting men would be really uncomfortable with the idea of this.

PleaseDont yes derby is a contact sport.

Super Re: your friend, I think that's so sad & infuriating in equal measure.
I've never played derby and am too old to start but I've always thought it looked awesome (for want of a better word!)
I'm on GC Reddit quite a lot and it's mostly American poster. Many derby players seem much much less happy about TIMs being included than has been suggested here...

No, I'm not joking. My cultural background isn't British and I find this is a moral panic over here, but completely normal where my family comes from.

Maybe men act differently where your family comes from?

And anyway, even if you are comfortable with it, can you really not empathise with women who, for whatever reason, don't want to see penises or for people to see their bodies either when getting changed?

To be honest I much prefer unisex toilets with floor-to-ceiling doors and their own sink.

'Communal changing rooms aren't sexy and it's a weird idea that people are there because they're interested in seeing you naked, rather than just because they're getting changed themselves.'
It's often more about them being observed while naked - www.kiro7.com/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/246633184
It's a fetish.
As well as predatory males who might commit assault on women, there are males who get gratification from being seen naked in a women-only space.
I know it's not nice to think about, but it does happen.

I live in the land of female only spaces middle East. Female only banks, stores, lines, seating sections, etc. I view it as a MASSIVE disadvantage because it infantalizes women.
I say this because:
A) there is NO such thing as a female only zone. Having been assaulted myself by a man (not even one dressing as a woman) in a female toilet at the age of 6, I know full fucking well that the idea of "female only zones" is bullshit.
B) by claiming you need special areas you claim you need special treatment. Whether that's shorter lines or more seating space, it declaring weakness and that you need protection.

Getting in stupid arguments about female only spaces sets women back decades to when they needed to be "protected".

Accept that NO WHERE is safe for women at the moment and why that is! And you'll stop giving a fuck about women only spaces, the "trans issue" you lot are so obsessed with, and realize that there are more pressing issues than gender politics and sterotypes. Grow the fuck up

Yesterday I went to the Rapid Access Womens Clinic at the hospital. The parts which are causing me pain are specific to females - my womb, my ovaries. Although I was seen by a male doctor (who performed an intimate examination) it felt safe to be in a clinic designed for women. As much as anyone who has a penis can claim to be a woman my biology is different to the biology of someone with a penis. Men should have special clinics for things like their prostate (unique to men) and no doubt they feel vunerable with a doctor putting a finger up their bottom just as I did when a man put his fingers into my vagina.

Hospitals is a big one for me, I've just cancelled a much needed operation, as I was told I'd be placed on a mixed ward after.
I have ptsd from csa. I can't and won't be around men on my own.

Public toilets is also one that needs to be ladies with female genitalia only! I've been in a situation where a man actually peeked under the toilet door in a train station.

Yet none of these "women only" places were officially open to transgender at the time. So "women only" means what exactly?

I am not keen on unisex toilets but only because men piss in the seat and fail to flush

I was on a mixed ward at 20yo following an asthma attack. I couldn't breathe, chained up to the oxygen and only a flimsy curtain to protect my privacy.

I was in for two nights and I didn't shower once. I just waited it out till I got home because I felt utterly vulnerable.

I don't use any other than female toilets but it wouldn't bother me if men were there as there are cubicles.

I wouldn't mind a male Dr performing my smear test but it has never been suggested.

The idea of 'womens spaces' or groups to talk and share experiences or whatever makes me want to cringe.

I was sexually abused in childhood and raped as a teenager.

But it's not about me. I care about what other women want and feel comfortable with when it comes to 'spaces' that they would prefer to be female only.

We have women only spaces because women want women only spaces. That's a good enough reason to have them.

If some women want mixed sex spaces instead, campaign for them. If MIT want to be in women spaces, tough, they can campaign for their own space.

I agree that we have more important issues to deal with, so dr

catscan

It's a slightly odd opening post.

I see that you are new, and maybe haven't read the numerous threads on here with specific examples such as the ones on this thread.

It's partly about those specific examples. But as you say it won't affect everybody, all the time.

What will affect everybody, 100% of the time, is that their rights will disappear. Whether they exercise them or not. Their choice will be removed.

Some of those are rights enshrined in law and some are customs and protocols that have the effect of 'rights'. (The right to challenge a man if he is not where he would normally be).

A man in a female intimate space has to do very little to intimidate. The lift of an eyebrow, a concentrated look, a smirk. That's all it takes. No laws broken, nothing you can actually hold them accountable for.

And women, culturally and socially will have to accept it.

Why? Why should we change all the protocols about sex segregation, to validate a handful of men?

Seriously. Tell me why? Who benefits? Tell me a single woman who would benefit.

I also have a question.

Quite apart from your common or garden predator/voyeur/peeping tom/paedophile who can exploit this with ease, here are men who fetishise women and their biology who are officially transgender, under the Stonewall definition.

Men who become aroused from not only accessing women's spaces, but by forcing them to accept that they are women.

And who enjoy women's discomfort at making them use the correct pronouns and the correct name.

Men who are compelled, by a sexual motivation, to access as many women's spaces as possible.

My question to you, is if these men are officially transwomen, how can we tell the difference between them and a transwoman with gender dysphoria? And, why should we even need to?

If you haven't come across autogynephilia before, perhaps this thread will help you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Yet none of these "women only" places were officially open to transgender at the time.

They were. Always have been in fact.

Antenatal yoga/swimming etc. I would feel mocked if surrounded by people dressed up as characatures of pregnant women, playing at complaining about piles and weak bladders.
I wouldn't have wanted to chat frankly to my "bump buddies" if I was being used as research for role play.

I would have just stopped going. As many women have done to "womens" and lesbians groups.

Toilets, changing rooms, hospitals, sporting events.
I'd feel quite uncomfortable with the first three to the point of choosing to go elsewhere if I could.
I'd feel outraged with the last and probably give up the sport if there was a mtf competing against me or my team.