Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[BertrandRussell]

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......

In relation to the earlier posts about prostitution why is it an either or choice. The 100 trafficked women clearly need help and prosecutions should happen - the traffickers not the women. Parallel to this if a women wants to work as a prostitute why criminalise her?

Women can choose to work as prostitutes while criminalising those who abuse women. Make punting not prostitution illegal.

Um... that's the Nordic Model and the radfem position.

The libfem position is legalisation. So neither sex worker nor punter gets prosecuted. Nor pimp, for that matter.

That's why I used it as an example to illustrate the differences between the two feminisms.

I know this thread is to talk about liberal feminism, but I think I'm rather wondering what radical feminism is. Dione has brought up the idea of radical societal change, but this has been countered by personal acts, because the personal is political, such as leg shaving. Thus was the idea used to counter the "dismantling the patriarchy" suggestion, with the addition that It's fine not to do it and still be a radical feminist. Is it just a way of viewing the word then? And if it is, how effective will it be in changing the world?

Radical feminism isn’t some kind of dogma. You don’t get a members card and then if you wear too much lipstick it’s taken away. It’s a set of ideas and a way of looking at the world, a way of understanding why things are the way they are and to understand the ROOT of women’s oppression.

The whole radfem vs libfem thing is just more idpol.

Libfem prioritises one happy hooker over one hundred trafficked women. Radfem prioritises the one hundred trafficked women.

Libfem prioritises one Sheryl Sandberg over one thousand women working minimum wage jobs without access to decent childcare. Radfem prioritises the one thousand women.

OK when its put like that I am definitely a radfem..not inbetween at all.

And when put like

If you look at the 'Everyday Feminism' site, that's what Libfem is now.

Everyday feminism is utter garbage to me. Its all about pleasing men and centreing them in everything. Which is not feminism to me, at all.

Thats what I meant by liberal feminsm has been bastardized tbh. I do not believe everyday feminism is actual feminism,m but its sold as liberal feminism. And so many subscribe to that version. My actual understanding of liberal feminism..I do sometimes agree with it. But the version it has became?! Not at all.

So is feminism like a political party you pick one and have to agree with everything? It's like The Cat in Red Dwarf , "that's mine, that's mine, that's mine". You can't have that one if your liberal.

My definition of liberal is traditional and classical, I despise the way the term is used when referencing the alt right.

My idea of liberal feminism may not toe the party line, in your opinion, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Just as an aside I think the term ' happy hooker' is problematical, if it's not ok to insult women then in its not ok. I think 'happy hooker' is a derogatory term personally.

I am (obviously) not well read in this. I have previously assumed I am a liberal feminist as it foregrounds equality in the public and domestic sphere and women's agency (easy for privileged me of course). Porn though, and prostitution, I would like to see strong legislation against.

Women can choose to work as prostitutes while criminalising those who abuse women. Make punting not prostitution illegal.

Nordic model then. Apparently you cannot be a libfem if you believe in this. Libfem position is decriminalizing fullstop..so the men get off scot free for literally buying womens bodies.

I did consider myself to be a libfem actually, until I was told I cannot possibly be. Because of my views on prositution (Nordic model, as you just explained), and my views on trans issues. I believe women need rights based on their biology, and that these rights should not be compromised to please a few men, as the rights are important to women.

Infact, anyone who expresses gender critical views is told them must be a radfem I know loads of liberal feminists who are gender critical. Its odd really.

You don't have to pick a side, surely? I don't agree with everything my political party espouse either, they're just the closest approximation to my views.

Most women do not pick a side I would imagine.

I don't 'pick a side'. I am just a feminist. My views align with both sides at times. I swing more towards radical femiism I think overall, but I don't really class myself as radfem. Others feel the need to though when as soon as I express a gender critical view they yell 'terf'

I do think people whos views echo the likes of everyday feminism are not feminists, they are meninist.

Many viewpoints that were previously mainstream feminism are now considered radical (as it is called, but meaning extreme). It seems that centering women is an extreme position to take for many feminists these days and asking what forms the basis of their feminism is seen as aggressive.

I am genuinely curious to understand how a position can be taken on an issue where that position demonstrably harms many women because it benefits a few and it still be a feminist position. I'm pretty firmly central politically too, so this isn't coming from a political stance.

I also don't quite understand the line drawn between doing and thinking. Seems to imply that some (many?) feminists do one or the other and not both. That surely can't be right?

There must be some common ground. Maybe that's the challenge for the board, instead of finding the points of difference.

Maybe TELF should be a thing. Given there are actually loads of gender critical libfems Not that either terfs or telfs are actually trans exclusive though. Just, they believe biology is real and prett damn important given its probably the main reason why female people are oppressed in the first place. Even if you believe we are oppressed due to socialization, thats because of biology too! Our socialization is based prely on biology. Whichever way you look at it, biology is very important in all branches of feminism (except maybe queer feminism, if there is such a thing)

I'm quite sure there are self-identifying Lib Fems who don't agree with wholesale decriminalisation. Feminism quite clearly not a political party - or group of political parties - with a written constitution and set of core beliefs. I suspect there is a great deal of cross-over in beliefs. I suspect a lot of MNs RadFems share a lot of beliefs with what might meet a 1980s definition of Liberal Feminism.

For myself, I can't get on board with the Radical Feminist belief that sex oppression is the fundamental oppression that pre-exists and underwrites all other oppressions. Other than that, I share a lot of Rad Fem beliefs, analysis and goals. I worked long and hard, for many years, to undermine the patriarchy and still believe that the heterosexual couple is a cornerstone of oppression and we will not have true freedom until that is radically destabilised as an imaginative ideal. I also think that women should attempt, at least once in their lives, to live as separatists - it's an eye-opening, even liberating, experience - not least in its difficulty to actually enact it!

So, just looking at my own experience of feminism, I think there is a lot more cross-over and nuance than the idea of two, distinct 'kinds' of feminism.

Feminism is a theology

It's really not.

Who said you not be a lib fem and believe in the Nordic model Lang?

Thems the rules Dione. Pick a side and the liberals don't have the Nordic model.

My experience of libfems is that if you agree with the Nordic model you are a Swerf. Another discussion ending slur ime.

Yep - current iteration of libfem is anti TERF and SWERF.

As others have said, it's not how libfem started out but it's the current state of play.

My experience of libfems is that some of them support the Nordic Model and think it is the best way to protect sex workers. And some of them don't support it. And think that's the best way to protect sex workers.

Libfeminism is a broad church with diverse views, but at the centre of it is a desire to protect the sex workers.

Libfem position is decriminalizing fullstop..so the men get off scot free for literally buying womens bodies.

It certainly is not.

I haven't RTFT yet, I'll go back and do that. But it annoys me that the concept of liberal feminism has been bastardised and demonised. I always thought of myself as a liberal feminist.
I don't agree with legalising prostitution, and I don't like porn. As long as some women's bodies are commoditised, we all suffer.
I don't think that enthusiastically throwing other women under the bus and proclaiming your cool girl credentials is any kind of feminism in action.
I don't agree that ladyfeelz make you a woman, or that women's interests are at all served by going along with the TRA agenda.
I do think that the problem that underpins almost all of these issues is that every human culture that I know of, and certainly all the dominant ones, celebrates, rewards, nurtures and encourages male violence. Against women, against children, against other men... universally. And that until we stop turning a blind eye to this and tackle it properly, we'll never really make progress.
However, I don't particularly want to dismantle capitalism. I am unconvinced by any of the alternatives. I'd like to see it far more stringently controlled. I don't think it's realistic or desirable to restructure our economy and society so that looking after your own children is paid in the same way as traditional paid work. I would like to see women and men have the opportunity to live more fulfilled lives that are less dominated by work- but raising a family is just one of many things anyone should be free to do with their time.
I'm not really keen on the strain of feminism that's all earth mothery and "I am amazing because I created life, nothing else matters", mainly because it invalidates my own choice not to do that.
I recognise that none of these views were formed in a vacuum. I can't help being a straight white middle class European in a world where that trumps nearly everything, and I'm neither selfless enough to want to give my privilege up nor lacking in self-awareness to realise that's hypocritical.

There are many women who do not identify as feminists who support the Nordic Model so it is really not as simple as Pick a side to identify as lib or rad fem.

Am I being thick? What's wrong with hiring a cleaner?

(Misses point?)

There are many women who do not identify as feminists who support the Nordic Model so it is really not as simple as Pick a side to identify as lib or rad fem.

Yet it appears to be as simple as 'pick a side' when it comes to trans issues. Literally anyong who says that biological sex is a real thing is denounced as a terf. So called 'libfems' also use SWERF for anyone who supports the Nordic Model. Modern day liberal feminism is a bit of a joke I think. 'Real' liberal feminism is not..and as I say I used to 'identify' as a libfem. My views have changed a bit now and I do lean more to radfem (while agreeing with a lot of 'real' liberal feminism) but I say I am simply, a feminist.

New liberal feminism, as I said earlier seems to be all about centering men. And to me, thats really really not feminism at all.

everydayfeminism.com is a good example of whats considered liberal feminism today. The meaning appears to have changed. The meaning of many words appear to have changed recently without letting anyone else know. Intersectional, for example. Today it means basically centering male people in feminism, and if you do not believe men are women, then you are not intersectional and as such, your feminism is bullshit. Its all crazy. Totally crazy how many words are being bastardized by todays youth.