My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we talk about liberal feminism?

572 replies

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2018 10:27

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

  1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
  2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
  3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

    Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......
OP posts:
Report
RatRolyPoly · 07/02/2018 11:37

Haha, yeah, it'd be like saying liberal feminists don't think we need feminists so they just wear the badge 'cos they like it.

...although I do think some people think that.

Report
DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2018 11:48

I agree that the work is nowhere near done. We need legislation and we need to work with individual women with regards to freeing the mind.

Given that we grow up in societies and families that shape all of our choices what is it that makes something a feminist choice, an unfeminist choice or a free choice?

Report
LangCleg · 07/02/2018 11:49

My understanding is that liberal feminism prefers an individual analysis over a class analysis.

I'm a leftie with a class analysis along all axes of oppression, and not a liberal, so I do not subscribe to this individualist version of feminism. I certainly don't think individual empowerment, a central tenet of libfem thought, will lead to the emancipation of all women from patriarchy.

That said, I don't regard myself as a radical feminist either, even though it has a class analysis. Principally because I don't subscribe to blank slatism. But that's for another thread!

Report
Datun · 07/02/2018 11:50

.

Report
RatRolyPoly · 07/02/2018 11:53

what is it that makes something a feminist choice, an unfeminist choice or a free choice?

Well precisely! For me personally I want to achieve an environment of equality in which all cases can be free, rather than to restrict or dictate choices in order to achieve a state of equality.

Report
RatRolyPoly · 07/02/2018 11:53

...but it's a juggling act...

Report
RatRolyPoly · 07/02/2018 11:54

Ugh, all CHOICES, not cases!

Report
HelenDenver · 07/02/2018 11:54

"Given that we grow up in societies and families that shape all of our choices what is it that makes something a feminist choice, an unfeminist choice or a free choice?"

I don't believe there's any such thing as a free choice - all choices are socialised (including e.g. saying bless you when someone sneezes, -
whether or not you are an atheist)

Hence I don't say it as 'talking down' to women if I suggest a choice (whether mine, theirs or another woman's) can be critiqued because I think all choices can be!

Report
NataliaOsipova · 07/02/2018 11:54

What if your free choice restricts the future free choices of other women, though, Rat....?

Report
SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 07/02/2018 11:55

they believe that men and women are gradually becoming more equal over time and that this trend will continue

Depends what you mean by 'equal' though, doesn't it? As part of this belief, I can see why liberal feminists buy into the concomitant idea that men and women are becoming less important or meaningful definitions, and when men are women, we'll all be equal - but that's not the kind of equality I'm after.

Report
GoodyHumbygge · 07/02/2018 11:57

In short for me, liberal feminism is about individualism. In that sense it segues well into neoliberalism/Thatcherism in that it's about personal empowerment and advancement. There are no structural barriers to success, power comes solely from within. Capitalist choices in a market economy are an essential part of this. Individual choices exist in a personal vacuum... they have no bearing on anyone else. To change the world, we should simply change ourselves... "be the change you want to see in the world" is the aphorism that sums up this mindset.

Radical feminism on the other hand is collectivist and class-based, hence you can do a class based analysis on the nature of women's oppression and barriers they face. I kind of see radical feminism like being in a labour union... taking a collective stand against subjugation and exploitation to undermine structural hierarchies.

“People sometimes say that we will know feminism has done its job when half the CEOs are women. That’s not feminism; to quote Catharine MacKinnon, it’s liberalism applied to women. Feminism will have won not when a few women get an equal piece of the oppression pie, served up in our sisters’ sweat, but when all dominating hierarchies - including economic ones - are dismantled.”
― Lierre Keith

Watch Lierre Keith here explain about the differences between liberalism and radicalism.

Report
thecatfromjapan · 07/02/2018 11:57

Dione Nothing in your post would be incompatible with an 80s definition of Liberal Feminism.

Which I'm finding quite interesting. I'm wondering if, in fact, there is only Liberal Feminism (by its 80s definition), these days?

Perhaps it's a question of comparison. In the 80s, Women's Aid would be seen as Liberal Feminism in that it worked with the existing system to reduce the harmful effects on women of that system and to create choices (leaving abusive men) within that system. women involved with Women's Aid called on the existing system to recognise an injustice and to change legislation that kept women with abusive men and failed to recognise harm to women within relationships. With some real success (thank goodness). Changes to police procedure and recognition of rape within marriage are real landmarks - even if we still have much, much further to go.

However, this took place within a feminist terrain where women were actively critiquing and setting up ways of living outside of heterosexual couple relationships and argued that anything less was simply shoring up a deeply flawed system. How many all-women communes still exist? Do women still become lesbians for consciously political reasons? Those experiments have kind of had their day (for many, varied, and interesting, reasons).

Perhaps 'Liberal Feminism' is something whose definition changes in relation to its 'other'? And the 'Other' - and consequently 'Liberal Feminism' - just isn't the same thing in 2018.

Report
NataliaOsipova · 07/02/2018 11:57

Depends what you mean by 'equal' though, doesn't it?

Absolutely. I think this is why I don't identify as a feminist, although I absolutely support rights for women.

Report
SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 07/02/2018 11:58

Yes, agree there is no such thing as a free choice.
A feminist choice is one which takes into consideration its impact on women and the ways they're perceived - an unfeminist choice is one which is usually motivated by personal/individual preference.

The oft-debated Miss/Mrs/Miss thing - using Miss or Mrs is an unfeminist choice because it contributes to the ideology by which women are defined by whether or not they're married, and men aren't. Using Ms, even though you know you'll be sneered at or incorrect assumptions will be made, is a feminist choice because you're a voice saying no, I am not contributing to or endorsing this ideology.

Report
HelenDenver · 07/02/2018 11:58

That's interesting, thecat

Report
DjunaBarnes · 07/02/2018 11:58

Lierre Keith is pretty good on distinctions between radicalism and liberalism:

Report
NataliaOsipova · 07/02/2018 11:59

A feminist choice is one which takes into consideration its impact on women and the ways they're perceived - an unfeminist choice is one which is usually motivated by personal/individual preference.

I'd agree with that. And I'm a Mrs!

Report
BertrandRussell · 07/02/2018 11:59

A feminist choice is one that puts women front and centre.

An unfeminist choice is one that doesn’t.

A free choice is practically impossible.

OP posts:
Report
DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2018 12:00

Goody, I think that one of my main reasons for not calling myself a radical feminist is the notion of tearing it all down. I haven't seen or read anything apart from Lesbian Feminism that can tell me how to tear it all down. Therefore for me, work to change legislation along with help for individual women is my liberal feminism.

Report
NauticalDisaster · 07/02/2018 12:05

10 years ago, maybe even 5, I would have described myself as a liberal feminist. I believed any choice I made was a feminist choice as long as there really was free choice. And I felt, from my privileged standpoint, that equality was greatly achieved with only a bit of work left to do.

I now view that very individualistic type of feminism as very "I'm all right, Jack." With very little further analysis done on how things are for women as a class as opposed to the individual.

I'm not sure that is the definition of liberal feminism but that is what I see in all the on-line feminism fora I follow (except the radical feminism ones, of course). Maybe, as SLPA pointed out on another thread (sorry if I misquote), this is liberal feminism taken over by neo-liberalism.

Report
hollowtree · 07/02/2018 12:08

Hi rat!

Report
HelenDenver · 07/02/2018 12:10

"this is liberal feminism taken over by neo-liberalism"

Yes.

This is why I say I'm a feminist - because you don't know what the listener's internal definition of libfem, radfem, anyotherfem might be!

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2018 12:15

A feminist choice is one which takes into consideration its impact on women and the ways they're perceived - an unfeminist choice is one which is usually motivated by personal/individual preference.

You see I have a problem with that. Practically all choices are motivated by personal/individual preference which is shaped by society and the family that you grew up in. Off course feminism can inform those choices but rarely is a decision taken on a purely feminist/unfeminist basis.

Report
RatRolyPoly · 07/02/2018 12:16

The problem with "tearing it all down" in my mind is "with what will be build it all back up?" if we have disregarded human rights to achieve it?

I can't find the quote but I'm sure I read recently, "in order to have women's rights we have to first have human rights". So Natalia when then question of "what if a woman's choice impacts women's rights?" it all boils down to a complicated dissection of the hierarchy of human rights, and what the best possible outcome is that you can achieve for the people involved. It really can't be cut and dried, don't you think? It's the age old question along the lines of "would you cut off a woman's arm to spare two women losing their hands?" or some paraphrase thereof.

Report
RatRolyPoly · 07/02/2018 12:18

Ugh, that made it sound like by "human" rights I mean "men's rights too!" - which I don't. I just mean things like choice are universal human rights as well as women's.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.