Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[BertrandRussell]

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......

No, again, this is not as simplistic as Pick a Side. Perhaps all radical feminists agree that biology is the be-all and end-all of this debate. Women and men who are not feminist agree with that. As do some libfems.

Others think it should be taken on a case by case basis.

Everydayfeminism is a website with a name with feminism in the title.

Thecat
the heterosexual couple is the cornerstone of oppression
Just off then- forgot to check my cis-privelege. Doh.

I don't believe its as easy as pick a side. Thats why I don't pick a side

A lot of people seem to think its as easy as pick a side though, which is why TERF and SWERF are said so regularly, by libfems. Or people saying they are libfems. Most often male.

And yes, I would say all radical feminists believe biology is important and is a large reason why female people are oppressed. I don't see how any feminist fullstop could disagree with that tbh.

RadicalFern I believe the idea is that cleaners are often low paid women and so it's exploitative. But I'll be honest I don't quite understand why the answer then would be to not hire cleaners, rather than pay them better and change the narrative that it's a woman's job. Especially as not hiring cleaners won't suddenly make men sit up and do the household chores - somehow it's still a woman who ends up doing the majority.

What I'm finding a little odd on here is that things I thought were liberal feminist ideas aren't. I thought that liberal feminists were by definition pro porn, pro legalisation of prostitution, non gender critical and (to go back to an earlier example-sorry!) would never dream of trying to persuade another woman not to shave her legs. But it seems not. So I appear to be no closer to knowing what liberal feminists are than I was at the beginning of the thread!

Bertrand I think that those things are the usual libfem position, but that doesn't mean all libfems buy into them.

I know when I was more mired in libfem thought, and reading libfem writing, it was very much pro-porn (though they'd make a distinction between good porn and bad porn), pro-prostitution (same as porn, there'd be a distinction), and while there'd be an element of gender critical thought it was more aimed at not gendering play/activities/jobs - there was still a belief in an inner innate gender.

At the time I saw the biggest distinctions between the two groups as radfems being unrealistically focused on revolution, too dictatorial on women's choices and unnecessarily mean about trans and sex workers.

My understanding is that paying cleaners better and changing the narrative that it's a woman's job is a libfem-esque solution, as it involves a degree of accepting the current system but finding ways within it to improve things for actual women.

Wouldn't the radical position be to not support that status quo at all but rather to look for ways to dismantle it entirely? Or is that too simplistic an assumption?

I can see how a radical feminist could easily live elements of liberal feminism but still be radical in virtue of their ideals.

changing the narrative that it's a woman's job is a libfem-esque solution

I'd say it fits pretty well within radfem too. There's this idea that radfem is all unattainable changes, a razing to the ground instead of anything that focuses on the now. And that's not the case.

So yeah, like 'intersectional' has been bastardized, so has 'liberal feminism' I think.

Yes I was going to say the same.

What an excellent thread. I'm finding the discussion very interesting.

PP who said it's broadly about individual focus vs group focus nailed it for me. But there's so much overlap on an individual level.

Rat I consider myself a radfem. But certainly agree with you about cleaners. Better pay and protections, change the narrative. But surely that's changing the system as it currently stands?

I also do agree with this, BUT this work thats already been done is IMO being undone with this whole trans issue. Sorry to bring it up in this thread but its true. If things were left as they are, we would become more equal in time, but if we accept that male people are female just on their say so and women only spaces are gone in a flash, then we are right back to square one really.

And yes again, totally agree. I'd add that the pornification of society and objectification of women also contributes to keeping us in our place.

So can a liberal feminist on here tell me what radical feminist ideas they find unacceptable?

But surely that's changing the system as it currently stands?

It's funny because, imo changing the narrative so that cleaning/household work isn't seen as a woman's job is a tearing down of the current system.

I guess it depends what you see as "the system" though. To me patriarchy is a means of keeping women as the underclass in order to get labour from them (eg. sex, emotional, household, child rearing), so the idea of cleaners mostly being low paid women is a perfect example of that system, especially the idea that women are just naturally suited to that job. Changing that is breaking a bit of the patriarchy.

Liberal feminist = I have choices, my choices have power and consequences and I can change things
Radical feminist = I am a victim, i have no choice or power because of men and I can’t change things. It’s up to men to do that for me.

I would say that radical feminism is very very incompatible with the idea that it's up to men to change things.

Effic - has never read the work of a single radical feminist in their entire life.

(Totes known for our love for paternalism, radfems are.)

Ummmm... no Effic. Just no.

Though actually, that's another good disctinction, most radfems I know will not accept men calling themselves feminists, while most libfems think it's a good thing if men ID as feminists.

Would help if so many "male feminists" didn't turn out to be absolute turds in the long run (hello there Hugo Schwyzer, living cautionary tale) but yes, agreed, that's one of the clear dividing lines.

That's probably true Goody, most libfems I know would be happy to call a man a feminist. Not without realising the conflicts inherent in doing so mind you, but just believing that on balance it can be helpful.

Oh sorry - yes I forgot that one
Liberal feminist = I’m allowed an opinion and it might not be the same as yours
Radical feminist = You are not allowed an opinion and we are right and you are wrong/handmaiden/patriarch supporters etc

Effic = nuance is against my religion, the main sacrament of which is shouting at radfems on the internet

Radical feminist = I am a victim, i have no choice or power because of men and I can’t change things. It’s up to men to do that for me.

Nailed it

Radical feminist = You are not allowed an opinion and we are right and you are wrong/handmaiden/patriarch supporters etc

Awww sorry you feel that way. Bye now.