Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[BertrandRussell]

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......

Radical feminists think the personal is political. Liberal feminists don’t.

Have I said that before?

Yes I have- sorry.

Yep. I can see why the latter appeals.

I suppose everyone can when it comes down to it, if they're honest.

The thing is, it's not even as though it's a question of a right feminism and a wrong feminism. It's simply a matter of two very different ways of seeing the world.

I'm a collectivist not an individualist so I'll always be much closer to radfem than libfem, even though there are a couple of points at which radfem and I part company so I don't call myself one.

Bert, what have you told your DD about shaving?

Dione- I told her that she can’t possibly be a feminist if she ever removes any of her body hair at all. I also make her remove all make up before she comes through the front door. She isn’t allowed to wear high heels, and I grounded her for a fortnight when I saw her letting her boyfriend carry her suitcase for her.

Ah right.

But seriously though, you choose to do something that makes you think that you are pathetic. How do you explain that to your DD? What message are you giving to your DD about what it is to be a woman?

I can't answer for Bertrand, but this is a subject that I'm not sure how I'm going to tackle with my own daughter. Right now she's very young, and only just starting to ask awkward questions.

Over Winter I've not been shaving my legs, and barely wearing makeup, this week was the first time in a long time I did a full face of makeup - because I was going for a job interview and thought that going barefaced could look like I wasn't making an effort. And she asked why.

I'l admit I just went with, "mummy felt like a change" rather than the truth. I'm not sure a 4 year old would understand a lecture on patriarchal beauty standards.

As she ages though I am going to talk to her about how expectations are different for her and her brother (I'll be teaching him this too). I'll tell them that they don't need to go along with them, but always let them know that I support them whether they make a stand or not. I'll show them people who do.

I'm not a revolutionary who is going to change the world with big gestures, I'm realistic and as affected by social pressures as the next person. But I can show them how the little things add up, and (hopefully) give them the knowledge and confidence to add their own rebellions - big and small.

That's not what I think it means. I think it means 'making changes within the existing structures, not tearing the structures down and starting again'

This is my understanding of actual liberal feminism.

Liberal feminism, like so many words/terms has been bastardized recently though and now people associate liberal feminsm with basically..doing anything to please males. All this sex positive stuff, people are told they cannot possibly be a libfem if they support the Nordic model or think porn is bad for women overall. people are told that they MUST be a radfem if they believe male and female are different things and that women need rights outside specific to their biology and such. So yeah, like 'intersectional' has been bastardized, so has 'liberal feminism' I think.

Dione

From the article you posted near the start of the thread..

'Liberal Feminists believe that the main causes of gender inequality are ignorance and socialisation.'

I kind of do believe that socialization plays a huge part in why women are disadvantaged. But also, the description of radical feminism I agree with. So I am a mix between liberal and radical. Which doesn't surprise me as I often have views to match even totally opposite things such as right and left wing.

Rape, violence and pornography are also methods through which men have secured and maintained their power over women.

This I 100% agree with.

But

The various alternatives suggested by Radical Feminists include separatism – women only communes, and matrifocal (female centred) households. Some also practise political Lesbianism and political celibacy as they view heterosexual relationships as “sleeping with the enemy.”

This I do not. I do not see why households should be female centered, I think they should be actually equal, Women only communes seems a step too far for me, though I do think female only spaces are very important.

If I talk the talk I like to walk the walk.

I've done radical feminism and it's hard work. Personally I can't in good conscience call myself radfem when I shave, wax, dress to impress and participate in some non radfem activities.

So I call myself a liberal feminist because it is a label that reflects my life. I fully understand that others don't have the same attitudes as I do (see liberal) and I support and enjoy radfem ideas and analysis.

However, I use the term liberal in the classic political sense and not meaning neo liberal with all the right wing baggage that entails.

We are all making compromises (see liberal) and I feel too compromised to call myself radfem.

I say to my daughter exactly what I have said here. She used to shave her legs all the time, but as a young adult is experimenting with not. I do not think it is at all damaging for a woman to know that we can’t always live up to our own high standards and that’s OK.

But I do agree with this: they believe that men and women are gradually becoming more equal over time and that this trend will continue.

I also do agree with this, BUT this work thats already been done is IMO being undone with this whole trans issue. Sorry to bring it up in this thread but its true. If things were left as they are, we would become more equal in time, but if we accept that male people are female just on their say so and women only spaces are gone in a flash, then we are right back to square one really.

Change is not always linear and positive. We have made steps forward in the last 100 years. Massive steps. At the moment I think we are regressing, we need to hold the line and wait for the next push forward. Indeed, militate for the next push forward, but I'll be doing it with my legs shaved, my hair dyed and wearing a foxy little number. Sorry.

“Personally I can't in good conscience call myself radfem when I shave, wax, dress to impress and participate in some non radfem activities.

So I call myself a liberal feminist because it is a label that reflects my life.”

I don’t really understand this. If you believe in radical feminist ideas then surely you are a radical feminist who sometimes does non radical feminist things?

I can't call myself radfem because I don't do radfem things so in my mind I'm not. It's just me, I understand if other people draw the line in a different place, but to me if I say it then I do it.

Radical feminism explains clearly how conforming to societies ideals of womanhood (girl hood?) is damaging, I understand it, agree with it, but don't live it. So I'm not radfem.

I still have so much to learn!

Half way through the thread- I believe in the seemingly rad fem idea of allowing breastfeeding breaks and crèches at work however I believe it's right to get a cleaner if it solves arguments over housework and allows more family time.

I understand the idea of working from within, especially the post explaining that sometimes it's better to work with than against, at the same time I think some things need tearing down (eg prostitution). Bit even with that I recognise at first it may have to be work with.

I hate advertising and the beauty industry; at the same time I enjoy make up and the aesthetics of fashion and design. But I think I now understand why they're so bad, how they affect everything etc so I feel at least I'm making a knowledgable choice.

Where does that leave me?!

Abd this quandary: I genuinely don't care if people see my hair legs at the swimming pool. However, they're not that hairy as I got a groupon laser deal about 7 years ago but only managed 5 sessions as then I got upduffed. So there's patches, but I don't care.

I have swum with 1cm pit hair and not given a shit. But struggle to go out without make up on...

So that's by definition lib fem?

As a rad would do none of it on principle?

I'm terf when it comes to the TiM stuff .

Different people draw the line in different places. I won't call myself something unless I not only think it but do it. That's just me though - other people compromise - that's fine too. But then I would say that I'm liberal by instinct.

“Radical feminism explains clearly how conforming to societies ideals of womanhood (girl hood?) is damaging, I understand it, agree with it, but don't live it. So I'm not radfem“

But you’re not a liberal feminist because of what you believe. You:re a radical feminist who doesn’t: always make radical feminist choices.........

In relation to the earlier posts about prostitution why is it an either or choice. The 100 trafficked women clearly need help and prosecutions should happen - the traffickers not the women. Parallel to this if a women wants to work as a prostitute why criminalise her?

Women can choose to work as prostitutes while criminalising those who abuse women. Make punting not prostitution illegal.

@BertrandRussell I cherry pick my beliefs. I pick the ones I can stick to and then stick to them. And I am not giving up my cleaner.

I don’t really understand this. If you believe in radical feminist ideas then surely you are a radical feminist who sometimes does non radical feminist things?

Ah, see now we're getting to the crux of the issue that's confusing me. To me it's the feminism you do, not the feminism you think; and I do "trying to make things better from within the system and trying to empower and enthuse young women" - liberal.

What I don't really get is whether in reality that differs a whole hell of a lot from your average, run of the mill radical-thinking feminist. Or is it literally our theoretical positions that distinguish us? Because I don't know of all that many radical feminists living in communes these days...

But a liberal feminist is not a radical feminist who hasn’t been able for whatever reason to life up to the highest ideals of radical feminism!

No, no, of course not, you're right. So do you think there's an element of the idealist in the radical and the realist in the liberal? Actually "realist" isn't the right word, makes it sound derogatory; I mean more practical with the focus on "what can I do now?" rather than "what would be the very best thing one could do?".

Makes it sound derogatory to the radical feminism to call the liberal realistic, I meant to say; and I didn't mean to imply one is better than the other.