#itsallgoingpeaktrans

[iamawoman]

Just wanted to say that😀

Yes. I just don't think that an absolute sex based segregation does that. It implies that Vagina:Good, Penis:Bad. As the mother of both a daughter and son I hate that. And I think continued emphasiss on it will only serve to damage everyone.

So for example in refuges, I think a blanket ban on transwomen working in them is wrong. There are many women who I defintely wouldn't want to be working in refuges, both trans and cis (and pls don't get arsey about the use of that word - it has relevance in situations when we are talking about the difference). An interview process enables unsuitable people to be weeded out, based on their unsuitability as a person not based on what they have tucked into their pants.

I do actually belivee that any person should be entitled to ask to not be treated medically by any other person. We can't make indiviual people be undiscriminatory, we can legislate so those discriminations are not enshrined in law.

I had a male midwife during one pregnancy. He was amazing. Best ever. There was a women who had refused to have him examine her. And that's ok. if an individual feels uncomfortable with another individual when it comes to personal care, they should be allowed to refuse them, as long as they accept that may cause repercussions for them such as having to wait for someone else to be available.

“if an individual feels uncomfortable with another individual when it comes to personal care, they should be allowed to refuse them”

The point is they might not be able to do so in the case of self ID as it would be “transphobic”

The entire point of having female only spaces for things like refuges is because the women in there have been so badly abused by “people” with penises (men) and are so traumatised they need to be somewhere that’s male free. I’d have thought that would be blindingly obvious.

Hmm so why should a woman face repercussions for requesting a female hcp but then are appointed a self iding female hcp? And know you dont need to use cis in opposition to trans to differentiate as transwomen are not women!! Segregation needs to be based on sex as that is the only definite biological fact apart from intersex and other rare conditions.

Not all fucking penises.

I do actually feel really sorry for people who think like that.

I've just got out of a crappy marriage where there was sexual abuse. I know that men abuse women. I know that we have to work really really hard to stop it and I know that it needs far more financial support.

But I'm also having amazing sex and a truly equal and supportive relationship now with the kindest and loveliest man who would never dream of using his penis for male violence.

Not moving on to accept that we need to be fisghting for rights for all people (whilst recognising that we still have far more work to do on women's rights and that much oppression is still based on biology) will simply entrench us in a sex based battle for ever

I also had a male midwife but i was asked if it was ok and i also would not have been accused or made to feel i was transphobic if i declined as i am sure male midwives know that a lot of women may not be comfortable. I hardly feel that we will be asked 'is it ok for a transwoman / self iding woman' to carry out your smear test today!

Im glad that you are happy now after your experiences.

Im also pretty sure many abused and traumatised women don’t give a shit if the male in question is nice or not. They don’t want him anywhere near them regardless. You surely must realise that ?

Hence why women’s aid currently only use biological women. Because they know and understand this. Self ID could change that.

And that's ok. if an individual feels uncomfortable with another individual when it comes to personal care

Did you not read about the woman who asked for another women to do her smear test, and was presented with a transwoman who claimed she was what had been asked for?

And really, what sort of a person applies for a job in DV centre knowing that the majority of clients are going to be triggered by their presence?

A penis isnt in isolation! It is attached to a male body (in most cases) . That male body is usually broader, taller, stronger than a female body, more likely to carry out violent and sexually orientated crimes, it has been socialised as male and therefore percieves women as having different characteristics depending on cultural background.

Not moving on to accept that we need to be fisghting for rights for all people (whilst recognising that we still have far more work to do on women's rights and that much oppression is still based on biology) will simply entrench us in a sex based battle for ever

But we cannot fight oppression based on biology (which you seem to agree is a thing) whilst also championing the rights for male bodied people to take away our ability to name our biological based oppression.

The two things cannot co-exist. It does not compute.

What type of nuutwr is mrs mcgarry to state she is having amazing sex when we are debating why self id is not a good idea 😶

MrsMcGarry I feel 'cis' a derogatory word with zero linguistic value when prefixed to 'woman'. Do not label other people and decide on their identity. It makes your support of self id look nonsensical.

I do not misgender or deadname trans people, I respect their choice of name and pronoun. In return, I expect the same levels of courtesy to be extended to me.

How about you go fight "for rights for all people", MrsMcGarry, and feminists keep focusing on women like we've always done?

MrsMcGarry Are you seriously suggesting that segregated spaces are no longer necessary because you've raised a feminist son?! And for some bizarre reason you are personally afraid of Ann Widdecom?

"I know nice men, therefore laws and rules that protect women from men aren't needed" is an argument so obviously bad that it's astounding how often people make it.

I wouldn't have minded a male midwife, but I absolutely understand that an awful lot of women would mind.

My coil was fitted by my male doctor, he put me at ease and I didn't mind. However, if he was wearing women's clothes I would have minded very much because it would have demonstrated that he was, at best, suffering a mental health issue, or at worst, getting off on the validation. I would not want to be naked and legs akimbo in either circumstance.

So many handmaidens fighting for the rights of men in dresses. It’s so fucking depressing. I had a very interesting conversation with one of my boys last time he was home. He was telling me that he was walking home through back streets, in the very early hours, after a night out. There was a young woman in front of him and he was saying that every bleeden road that she was taking, was the one that he needed to take! He was saying that he couldn’t believe it and was trying to hang back, he’s like a bloody giraffe and she was tiny, so it just made him look even creepier. Apparently he could see her looking behind and knew she was nervous, so decided to try to take a different street, so that she’d feel safer. He got very lost and after we had a good laugh, I told him that it was so lovely that he recognised her fear. He is generally a lovely, caring young man.

Sorry that was so long, but there is a sad follow up to it. When I asked him why then he couldn’t recognise why women don’t want to share intimate spaces with TIMs he tried to say that was different and I was suggesting all TIMs were rapists. Honestly! He could understand why a young woman was afraid of a strang man behind her, but not of women not wanting to be undressed or using toilets while a TIM is in the same room. It’s all so fucking depressing. ☹️

I think I’ll get that on a tee shirt, as I seem to be saying it so often. it’s all so fucking depressing

I totally agree with safe spaces. I just don't think we have to segregate them based on the possession of a penis.

You may well be happy to get undressed in front of random men. But it is patently obvious that a great many women are not. You appear to be saying that their boundaries should not be respected. Why not?

I've raised a feminist son. I'd feel far safer in any space with him than I would with women like Katie Hopkins or Anne Widdicombe

Well of course you would. He's your son! To other women, your feminist son is simply another random man. I would not expect to find him in a women's changing room. On the other hand, Katie or Anne would have every right to be there, as changing rooms are segregated by biological sex, not by political opinions.

There was a male midwife at the hospital my kids were born in. Nobody had a particular issue with it, but if he had worn a dress and called himself Petunia there'd have been a fucking riot.
Sometimes men can legitimately be in women's spaces, it's men masquerading as women that are the actual problem.

with respect MrsMcgarry how does a safe space for Women, remain a safe space if Penis’ are now acceptable? I dont get it...

How is it still a safe space?

MrsMcGarry if your son is truly a feminist then he shouldn’t even think about sharing a space intended for females, as he would have some understanding of why they don’t want a man there. The fact that you think we should give up our safe, sex protected areas, would strongly suggest that you have very little understanding of what true feminism stands for. I used to be very keen to prove that the abuse that I suffered at the hands of men, throughout my childhood and early adulthood didn’t turn me into a man hater, that I became a right on, lib fem, not all men are bad, handmaiden.

Thankfully the wonderful women of mumsnet have given me the strength to work through those issues and realise that I no longer have to be right on, to prove I’m not a man hating old feminist. I CAN and WILL protect women’s rights and I don’t give a shit what men and their handmaidens think about me or call me. And I can still love the good men in my life, while centering women.

At the end of the day anyone self-iding as a TIM and being a rapey bastard is an argument against self-id. It doesn't actually matter who they really are or why they're doing it.

I agree, Tallulah, and it’s why I now tend to think the GRC has had its day.

Before the internet gave dangerous individuals the concept of ‘trans’ to work with, and facilitated online coaching for the purpose of faking gender dysphoria, it seemed to many like a reasonable concession to transsexuals (despite the overlooking of biological facts aspect).

Now that the trans umbrella has all and sundry under it, and there’s no way to weed out the perverts (especially if there’s no recorded offending) and pisstakers, and overlooking biological reality no longer feels like an accommodation we can afford make, the GRC process doesn’t need seem fit for purpose.

need

I've just re-joined MN after a lengthy break, mainly to be able to join in the discussion on the Feminist boards. I peak-transed over a year ago, when I realised that the Transactivist movement had little to do with old-school transsexuals and much more to do with pushing the agendas and entitlements of MRAs, autogynephiles and assorted fetishists.

I work in a university (teaching a humanities subject) and the atmosphere around all this is positively McCarthyite. Our VC is totally woke and I've recently found myself wondering how quickly I'd be out of a job if I were to teach second-wave feminism, or tell my students that gender is a social construct.

Am drafting a letter to my tory MP (not someone who likes to put her head above the parapet) about self-ID right now.